Leaking 4th main

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Leaking 4th main
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 01:37 am:

I just have a badly leaking oil 4th main bearing on one of the T's. Normally I replace it with the engine out of the car and on a stand setting vertical with the bearing on the top. I am willing to do this in the car (no time to do this with the engine out). Can it be done easily? Do I need to pay attention for something special??

Thanks
Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 10:46 am:

You will have to move the engine forward or pull the rear end back/out. Other then that the job should be easy. I would suggest checking the plug in the tail shaft to see if it's in place while you are at it.
If your new 4th has been bored to the correct indexing/centering point it should slide right in. The indexing/centering point is the area where the bowl meets the flange, you can see where it has been machined. That machined area is what centers it in the opening. The bolts just hold it in place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly Montana on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 06:45 pm:

Have you guys ever use a brass bushing in the fourth main instead of babbitt? I could do this in my own shop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 07:01 pm:

Pat,
I've never done it but have come across 2 in older rebuilds that had brass bushing, one was done some 30 years ago and was still all good, so I re-used it and sent it out of the shop, another 30 years will see me and the owner out for sure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 07:01 pm:

Normally when a ball cap leaks, if it isn't burnt out, it has too much clearance. It should not have under .002-50, and not over .003.

A Brass bushing fit to a ball cap will Gall .

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 07:22 pm:

Herm,
If the brass bushing will Gall in a ball cap so it will on the drive shaft, and we know that it doesn't, we replace the babbitt bush there with brass, it's turning at the same revs as the output shaft, same clearance and only a slick of grease for lubrication.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan McEachern on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 09:07 pm:

Check that the plug is in place the driven plate output shaft between the high gear spring pin and the u joint square. If there is no plug in place, engine oil will run out thru the output shaft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 10:45 pm:

There is a huge difference between a brass bushing and a bronze bushing. Brass is a lousy bushing material


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 11:38 pm:

Not the same thing Frank. Engine oil has a lot of cast filings in it, and that causes galling.

The crank also turns at the same speed, and bushing, brass, or bronze have been tried in place of Babbitt, has never worked.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 11:46 pm:

So Herm, then T transmissions are doomed from the minute you start them up with all that cast filings running through them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 04:58 am:

The drive shaft has a smaller diameter than the output shaft from the transmission, so the peripheral speed at the fourth main is higher than at the driveshaft. The possibility to use a bronze plain bearing is also depending on the radial forces, which can be higher at the fourth main - depending on straightness of the transmission shaft, balance in the transmission parts and other factors like bending on the pan from braking forces, especially on pre 26 T's without the hogshead bolts to the block.

I bought a ball cup with a used bronze bushing at a swap meet. It turned out to be worn slightly larger than my output shaft, so I tinned it, soldered on some Babbitt all around and fitted it to the shaft with a lathe and Timesaver. (Well, it saved me from tooling up to cast the babbitt :-) )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 09:59 am:

Frank
Most people don't drive in low and reverse very much. Maybe 1/10% of the usual driving experience. So your argument is not relevant
Personally I make my own ball bearing "4th mains " and have for many years. Unfortunately the store bought ones I've seen aren't made right. The concern of Roger's about transmission shaft runout is easily managed with a floating transmission shaft


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 11:55 am:

Still isn't the same thing Frank. That is all slow speed.

Tell you what, Frank. Why don't you start building ball caps, and main bearings, and Rods with bushings, and sell your head off, and see how many you get back! If that is the way to go, why waste your time with Babbitt.

I know, but then you will find out also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 03:47 pm:

Les, I've always done my own with babbitt, a simple job to do.

Herm, you sir are just getting rediculous in your statement!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bill Crosby Webster, NY on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 04:09 pm:

Les, Could you please share your ball bearing design so we can understand why your design is better?

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 05:39 pm:

Bill
In the installation of any "anti-friction " bearing (ball roller etc.), the "rotating race" (in this case the inner) must be locked or attached to the rotating object. If this isn't done a phenomenon called "fretting corrosion " WILL occur. On the tailshaft of the T because there is lots of oil present and most cars don't get many miles it will be slower , but it will occur. Wear will happen to both the inside of the bearing and the outside of the shaft.
The solution is as follows;
1. Machine the shaft for a "light press fit" (about .001-.002 interference). If you have a existing one with a slip fit I would probably use Loktite.
2. As the bearing is now locked to the shaft it becomes important that the outer race now has the ability to "float ". So machine the housing bore for a "close slip fit" (about .001-.003 loose). To stop the small amount of oil from leaking by I normally machine a O ring groove in the bore of the housing.
On any maintenance disassembly the housing is slipped off and the bearing remains attached the tailshaft.
I trust this explains things satisfactorily
(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 06:27 pm:

Guys lets get back to Andre's question. Maybe a new posting can be started if you want to talk more about this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 06:28 pm:

Mark
I'm finished


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 06:31 pm:

And seemed like you did a excellent job of answering his questions in your first posting


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 09:35 pm:

Thank you Les. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 06:26 am:

Go on Guys Go on, the discussion is interesting.

Since Mark's first post I started to take the rear axle out and find there is a ball bearing fourth main in the engine so I decided to take the engine out and set it on my test stand to see what is happening.
I will come back with photos, maybe tomorrow.
A new ball bearing main is ordered at Snyder last Tuesday with 6 days Fedex shipping. It is in Paris now and will be at home early next week.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David L Corman on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 08:01 am:

Difficult to improve on original babbitt bearing


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David L Corman on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 08:02 am:

Difficult to improve on original babbit bearing


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 08:32 am:

I found this in a bunch of auction stuff. Any experience/comments?




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 08:51 am:

I've said my piece. Follow my advice or ignore it. Your decision


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 09:46 am:

Did it a little faster than tomorrow. Here are the photos of the leak.
First photo is with the engine stop just after cleaning the unit. Second photo after about 10 sec. run and the third photo is after about 5 min. run.
As you can see the leak is not on the shaft but it is the bearing it self. The seal has a bad fit on the inside ring of the bearing.
Yes it is made in China.


I wonder if I can find a replacement for the bearing here in Belgium.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 10:01 am:

I recommend that you find a Babbitt bearing cap and then not have any more trouble Andre. It needs to fit the output shaft at .002" new. It will wear .0005 in the first 50 feet.

Those ones with the ball bearing don't last.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 10:04 am:

Andre
I'm sure you can find a replacement bearing locally. Considering that virtually ALL ball bearings are metric. Yes it is possible to buy a few that are hard inch measurements, but they are rare. There should be a 4 digit number on the edge of the outer race, or carefully press it out and measure it (ID, OD, width).
People get in trouble installing ball bearings in several ways;
1. Press installing "across " the races. For example pushing on the outer race when installing the inner race on a shaft is bad practice
2. Press fitting of both races requires very close tolerance machining to avoid removing the internal clearance from the bearing
3. Most ball bearings are not rated for much thrust load, especially the one pictured. Therefore the outer race needs to be free to "float" longitudinally in this application. About.001"to .003" clearance would work well here
I hope this helps


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 10:06 am:

Royce
40 years and 25,000 miles and counting here on my ball bearing. I suspect I'll be dead before mine fails


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 10:09 am:

As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, take a bright light and inspect that the "disc" inside the output shaft is still properly installed. It would be a shame to replace the bearing and not fix the actual leak


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 10:12 am:

Les,

I've never installed any. Only removed failed ones like the one Andre has. Cheap overseas bearing, not centered in the cap. No idea how long they take to fail, just see that they always do.

I found a bronze one in an engine last year and it was a very tight fit so I put it back in service. The engine had many miles on it before I took it apart, again no telling how many, but the bronze bushing on the output shaft was working very well. The shaft had been turned down some to accommodate the bronze bushing. Whoever did it was a good craftsman.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 10:27 am:

Royce
Unfortunately you and I have seen enough cases of people who don't understand the basic engineering requirements, producing a product that damages the reputation of a perfectly fine concept.
Another great example is the ball bearing "cartridge style" rear axle bearings. There are plenty of examples/stories of them cutting into the axle and the rear wheel falling off on the road. Invariably they have ignored the rules I outlined!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 11:26 am:

Royce,
This one Failed after two years of use and about 1500 miles.

Thanks Les to explain it all.

I think I will find an other problem as I will try to take the bearing unit out. There is a lot of silicone on the shaft. I will try to heat the bearing with a paint stripper. Whatever, the bearing is gone but I should like to save the rest.
By the way, the plug is inside the output shaft.
If it wasn't there, I think the oil should be everywhere and not only dripping when the engine is running.


Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 12:14 pm:

I have seen over a half dozen instances of those "modern 4th main ball bearing ball caps" that have failed. Most times, the seal fails, the bearing is locked up, and the shaft is turning in the inner bearing race and the owner has no idea anything is wrong unless there is a big oil leak.

Replacing it with a stock Ford style babbitted fourth main cap and drive plate, you should bear the following in mind: The original Ford blueprints call for the bore of the fourth main bearing to be .005" to .008" larger than the journal on the driving plate. Ford did this because they knew their manufacturing variances on all of their parts between the crank shaft and this bearing could add up to a runout sufficiently large enough to potentially cause interference and premature failure on this bearing if smaller clearance was used and all parts were not perfect.

However... If you have carefully balanced & blueprinted all your internal engine & trans parts and have verified that your total indicator runout at the driving plate journal is at-or-less-than the clearance of the brake drum and driving plate bushings, then you may fit your fourth main cap with a .002" to .003" clearance with no ill effects. .002" is proper "by the book" clearance for a bearing of this type, but Ford knew that the potential oscillation and runout in their parts, as they were mass-manufactured were not always "good enough" for a "by the book" clearance there and Ford purposely made the clearance at these parts "excessively wide" (and potentially leaky) as a way to prevent premature failure of the bearing itself.

Now, with that being said, I personally would never make a clearance here wider than .005", and here is generally what I recommend to my customers when I make a fourth main: If the engine and trans has been blueprinted and/or it has been verified that there is nearly no runout at the fourth main journal, then a clearance of .002" to .0025" will work well and produce good longevity. If the quality of the assembly has not been verified, then a clearance of .005" is more appropriate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 12:39 pm:

I get a "chuckle" out of the term "MODERN" used in this regard. If you look in the era speed books, this item is being promoted then That was the first place I heard of it 45 years ago. I studied it and then made my own. No regrets.

Otherwise I completely agree with everything Adam says!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 06:30 am:

Here I am back.
The engine is repaired with a new bearing.
Here is what is wrong with the old bearing.
As you will see on the photos, the seal in the bearing isn't concentric with the inner ring of the bearing.

Just for information


Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 09:32 am:

While i am no fan of the ball bearing in this use,do you actually know which ball bearing you should use for this job?? Is the bearing sealed or just a shield? I find it hard to believe a sealed bearing on both sides would leak before many years of service.Oldsmobile used to offer school to trades people way beyond normal training and to stay on day shift and maybe learn something i took many such classes.One class was 40 hours on bearings and most of it was teaching people to get the right bearing for the job! Bud,long retired millwright.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 10:06 am:

Examination of the pictures shows the number 6009RS. The "RS" means "rubber seal". Actually now neoprene seal. The 6009 is a standardized metric size designation.
Personally I always buy a "name brand" like SKF or FAG or similar and avoid the cheapest brands. I figure I usually have to pay to get quality!!! This bearing may have been screwed up by doing one of the installation mistakes I've mentioned


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 11:23 am:

No wonder why there is a different in quality.
Koyo 6009 2RS bearing is here at 18.95 . The China replacement 6009 2RS is at 4.78 .

1.0 is about $1.03

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 11:38 am:

I would buy the Koyo with no concerns about quality!!
Proper installation techniques are still called for though


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 11:42 am:

Thanks Les,
I know about the proper installation techniques, I was a tractor, truck and car mechanic for 40 years.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 11:48 am:

RS has a seal on one side, 2RS has seals on both sides.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, February 23, 2017 - 12:50 pm:

Ken
Is right. Personally I use the 2RS for this application. Keep the factory lubricant in the ball bearing. Keep the engine oil out of it. By the time the bearing needed fresh lubricant I will be dead


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