Does anyone use aviation gas in your Model T?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Does anyone use aviation gas in your Model T?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Mays on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 09:37 pm:

I have only used ethanol gas in our Model T cars and haven't had any problems so far and have rarely used Stabil in the gas. So far, so good. Have any of you used AvGas (100 LL), and if so what has been your experience? Just wondering. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gilbert V. I. Fitzhugh on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 09:44 pm:

What's the point? It's illegal to fill a car from an airport's avgas pump, so you have to transport the stuff in cans - at six pounds a gallon. You have to have a convenient airport that will let you out onto the field to get the stuff. It's expensive. With 4:1, or even 6:1, compression, you don't need it.

I have to through all this BS to get Jet A for my Stanley, because good kerosene from a pump is unobtanium in northern NJ. I sure as blazes wouldn't do it if I had a choice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 09:45 pm:

It is ,or would be a monumental waste of money. A model T was designed to run on about 50-60 octane.If you give it 87,it thinks it's in Hog heaven. 100 LL is way to much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marc Roberts, York, Pennsylvania on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 10:00 pm:

Avgas is almost 2.5 times the cost of mogas. If I am not mistaken, anyone selling it to you with knowledge that you intend it for on road use is committing a serious crime. Leaded gas wasn't introduced until 1923. Non-ethanol gas is available if you look for it, and is probably as easy to find as an airport. There are ways to deal with the downsides of ethanol fuel if you can't get the ethanol free kind. Why bother with leaded in a Model T?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul iverson freeport ill. on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 10:01 pm:

the big advantage is avgas is real gas it never spoils it wont gum up or hurt a cork float,gas tank will stay like new but it wont make a low compression eng run any better


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Blake, Kansas City on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 10:09 pm:

Your question begs another. Does avgas still have lead in it? If so that would be the only advantage, and that is only beneficial with regard to valve seat wear.

High octane fuel does not magically yield more HP in a low compression engine. It only enables a high compression engine to make the most of its capabilities.

If I recall correctly avgas is typically more like winter blend fuel (vapor pressure) to work at higher, cooler altitudes. It would be more prone to vapor lock in the summer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Mays on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 10:13 pm:

Was just wondering on the question. Seems my question has been answered. Haven't seen that question here before and figgered this would be a good place to ask. Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jonathan Delancey on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 11:04 pm:

http://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gilbert V. I. Fitzhugh on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 11:12 pm:

The LL in 100LL stands for Low Lead, not no lead.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 11:20 pm:

100LL may be called "low lead" but it still has something like four times the lead that the old 80/87 had. Seeing as the T was designed prior to gasoline having any lead, it seems there's no point.

Even if it's free, the EPA can come down hard on you if they catch you putting leaded gas in anything that can't fly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Thomas on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 11:40 pm:

I put 100LL in some of my racing cars, as it is cheaper than the race fuel we get at the track. I also use it at the end of the season in all my NO CATALYST cars including Model T. I run a few gallons though to keep the fuel system from degrading over the winter. Also do this in lawn mowers and tractors. The weedwaker loves it. I get it at the airport in 5 gallon cans. About 15-20 gallons does me for the season.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 12:23 am:

Tim is 100% right. _100LL has lots of two things your Model T does not need: hi-octane and the tetraethyl lead that makes it hi-octane. _100LL is only low-lead when compared to 100/130-octane because that stuff has twice as much lead. _In fact, 100LL has so much lead that to add lead to 80-octane aviation gasoline, all they have to do is run it through the same pipes the 100LL went through and it leaches the lead right out of the plumbing.

The kind of aviation engines that need 100LL run a whole lot hotter and make a whole lot more power than the little thermosiphon-cooled sewing machine under the hood of your Model T. _ Your Flivver's engine doesn't get hot enough to vaporize the tetraethyl lead in 100LL, so the metal would just solder itself to the spark-plugs and exhaust valves, and you'd have to take things apart to get the crust off.

Add a little Star-Tron enzyme fuel treatment to your regular automotive gasoline and you'll be just fine (and you'd save a gob of money in the bargain).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 07:19 am:

I doubt that Av gas would give any benefit with a higher compression head like a Prus or Z-head too That only raises the compression to about where a modern lawn mower normally has. One of my local farm co-ops has 87 octane non-oxygenated fuel for a few more cents than regular oxygenated 87. I throw a fuel can or two in the truck when I head that way and get some of that non-oxygenated fuel for the Model T. Runs fine and I don't worry about all the problems ethanol can cause if I don't get the opportunity to drive the car much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 07:19 am:

no


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 08:19 am:

John -- Are you wanting Otis to fly? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 08:42 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 08:47 am:

Waste of my money which I don't have enough of!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 09:24 am:

In our other hobby, military vehicles, we encourage vehicle owners to NEVER run ethynol fuel in their carb vehicles. Not AV gas, per se, but ethynol free gas. It is available to certain stations and at fuel wholesalers.

I drive my jeep up to the local wholesaler, fill the jeep and about 6 5gal jerry cans which I use in lawnmowers, weed whackers, chainsaws, etc., as well as the jeep and the T.

The alcohol in the modern fuel attacks the shellac on the cork and felt seals and floats and the ethynol, in open air systems, turns to glue.

In modern cars, it gets used quickly and is kept pretty much airtight. In a carb, after running, the carb may not get run for a few weeks, and that's when the problems occur.

But we don't see the upgrade to AV guel worth anything if you can get "clean" gas at a small premium. A carb rebuild on the WWII jeep is almost $400. An extra buck on gas is cheap insurance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 09:36 am:

My Model T doesn't get driven much so I use it for the reason cited above by Paul Iverson.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carey on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 09:54 am:

I use 100LL at the end of the season as the only
non alcohol gas around here costs $70 for a 5 gallon can.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 10:02 am:

I once tried 100LL in a motorcycle I was racing at the track. It ran smoother but then the carburetor seized and I had to take it apart and clean it. Too much lead I guess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 10:12 am:

There is no lead in av-gas anymore. Ethyl,and PPG went out of business years ago. Put a lot of folks out of work,but that is the one thing US EPA does well..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David L Corman on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 11:12 am:

There is 1.2 to 2.0 grams of TEL per gallon of 100LL aviation gasoline currently.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 11:44 am:

Actually 100LL still contains TEL as David C correctly points out. It's great stuff for anything with compression ratio above 10:1 or for turbo / supercharged applications.

I am an FAA A&P / IA and there has been testing for a completely lead free Avgas under way for about 5 years. It is getting close to being approved by the FAA. When it is approved it will be much more costly and will likely cause a great number of general aviation aircraft to be parked permanently.

Not any reason I can imagine to use Avgas in the majority of Model T's. Maybe if you were running at the Bonneville Salt flats in something really radical. Or a Model T powered aircraft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Codman on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 11:46 am:

To Jack Daron. Your statement is incorrect. All Avgas sold in the USA contains lead. For a while, auto gas that did not contain lead was approved for certain low-compression aviation engines, but when the geniuses in Washington DC decided to add 10% ethanol to the gas, that STC (Supplemental Type Certificate) went away. I know of no production piston engine aircraft manufacturer that allows the use of ethanol.
BTW: The only thing that a T would gain from 100 LL would be less water absorption and more lead fouling of spark plugs, combined with shorter exhaust system life. Aircraft exhaust systems are made of stainless steel for a reason.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Troy Todd on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 02:03 pm:

I'd be really happy if someone near me would start selling pure gas. The closet station is 50 miles. I've had to clean out carbs a few times from that snot that ethanol leaves. Thanks for posting the website. I have been checking for a couple of years now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Haynes - Chadron, Nebraska on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 02:49 pm:

I would think that you would not have a problem with the newer valves....perhaps the old style valves would not like the extra heat the higher octane would generate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 03:00 pm:

John Haynes your statement is backwards. The higher octane of Avgas 100LL results in lower exhaust gas temperature since more compression can be sustained before detonation can occur. This means that combustion is more complete by the time the exhaust valve is opened.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 03:17 pm:

A way back,I worked for one of the major oil Co."s and actually blended Gas and some Av-gas. We didn't have lead anymore so used another component. I was not aware they had gone back to some form of TEL. Sorry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willard Revaz on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 03:33 pm:

Most 100 a gas can be obtained for FREE! When a mechanic has to drain the gas from a plane for any reason, it CANNOT be put back. Most small shops store this gas in a drum for personal use, if they don't get caught. Befriend an airplane mechanic and see if you can get some in exchange for a ride in your T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 03:38 pm:

They never went away from TEL. It is required by law to be a component of 100LL.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 03:57 pm:

From 2010 Model T Ford Forum:

From J.F. "Avgas 80/87: this product is used in low compression ratio aircraft engines, contains little or no lead, is red in color, and should not be used in any automotive engine due to a low motor octane number of about 80.

Avgas 100/130: this product that can be used in some automotive engines. It has both research and motor octane numbers slightly over 100. Avgas 100/130 is green in color, contains four grams of lead per gallon, and is becoming harder to find.

Avgas 100 LL: the LL stands for "low-lead" which means two grams per gallon, low compared to the avgas 100/130 that it was designed to replace. It has research and motor octane numbers very similar to the 100/130 product previously discussed. The color is blue. This product sometimes has a high level of aromatics, which can contribute to lazy throttle response, and dissatisfaction of the consumer

Avgas 115/145: this product was developed for high performance piston aircraft engines used in world war II and in the Korean war. It is very hard to find anymore due to lack of demand although it is of very high-octane quality. The color is purple."



http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/168521.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marc Roberts, York, Pennsylvania on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 08:26 pm:

If not 80/87, Jack may be remembering 82UL. I never saw it for sale anywhere, but it was made for a time, as I recall reading an article in EAA's Sport Aviation magazine about it. 82UL is definitely out of production. Some say 80/87 is made in very limited quantities, but I have no idea where is sold. The longevity of avgas is very impressive. I have had some (100LL) that was five years old that seemed to work just fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob from Nova Scotia on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 08:46 pm:

I use moonshine because that's what Henry designed it to run on


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Blake, Kansas City on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 10:04 pm:

Several have mentioned that Av gas has a very long "shelf life" so to speak. How is that accomplished? Additives? The way it is refined? Is Av gas free of hydrocracked, or catalytic cracked fractions? Just curious.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 11:04 pm:

Of course they used av gas in Model T engines.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/148961.htmlav


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 11:07 pm:

Oops. Didn't work. Was intended to link to old post with Model T engined aero-planes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter B. Ratledge on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 08:25 am:

I have a friend that uses AVGAS all time. He swears by it. I feel it costs to much. I use medium grade gas and I add Star-Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment and a little Marvel Mystery oil to the gas. I am running a five -Ball carb.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 09:13 am:

Non ethanol gas is easy to find here, several stations within a 5 mile radius. One of the upsides to living on an island. However, when they first started with the ethanol and non ethanol it got me thinking . . .

I was raised where it was known that if you left your fuel in your tank it would go bad and could do bad things. It seems we are not buying fuel that is even worse and paying more for the stuff that wasn't good before thinking it's good.

In regards to av gas, I would like to run it in my daily driver if it was available and affordable. Of course my car is a '59 tbird . . .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 11:42 am:

>>>I have only used ethanol gas in our Model T <<<

Hi John - Are you talking about E85 or modern gasoline with 10 to 15% ethanol?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Mays on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 02:55 pm:

Jesse, I have been warned by several guys that know a lot more about engines than I do, to NEVER use the E 85. Causes too many problems. Been married too long to not do what I'm told.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 03:52 pm:

I ran E-85 for a year solid with no ill effects......except for starting in the winter. Took a dang propane torch to the manifold to get it to start when it was cold. But there was no rusting up of the fuel system and all manner of BS everyone was predicting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Alexander in Albion, Maine on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 04:35 pm:

Late fall every recent year I fill my '25 pu tank with 50-50 regular gas and av gas. WEe get lots of weather here that is heavy on condensation. In the spring the car starts and runs fine.


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