WW1 Military color paint

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: WW1 Military color paint
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Boris Forgerit on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 02:53 pm:

Hello,

I'm looking for US WW1 military paint code for my 1916 T machine gun carrier project.

I found few informations on web about history of Olive Drab but no paint codes :
"Olive Drab has been used on US Ordnance since before The First World War. Some accounts claim that it originates with commercial Pullman railroad colours. This may be, though I have never seen an official reference to any such connection. Many countries adopted an Olive Drab colour as a standard military shade, as it represents a compromise between earth colours and foliage colours in temperate climates. Olive Drab was established as the standard colour for tactical vehicles in Bulletin No. 90 of the General HQ of the American Expeditionary Force (AEF) on 11th November, 1918 a practice which would remain in place through the end of World War II. The World War I Quartermaster Olive Drab was described by Charles Lemons, curator of the Patton Museum at Fort Knox, as the colour of pig slop, that is a very muddy olive brown. The colour for this Olive Drab was established by the Manual for the Quartermaster Corps, 1917, Par. 3964. The pigments used to mix Olive Drab were very simple: black and ochre.
http://www.militarymodelling.com/news/article/olive-drab/4536/

I have a tail light with military paint under black paint and I find it very similar with ww2 olive drab paint !

Your help would be greatly appreciated

From France,

Boris


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard D. Dennis Byron, Georgia on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 03:25 pm:

Boris, a few years ago I tried to find a correct color for my 1917 Maxwell Light Delivery used by the A.E.F. . I was unsuccessful but did contact David O'Neal who restored a WWI Ford ambulance and a machine gun carrier and this was his response:

The paint during world war one was not a pre-mix like you have today. It would have been a dry powder and then mixed

with and blended with mineral spirits. Therefore you would have had many shades of the same color. I was fortunate to obtain a 1917 Machine gun cart

that has most of the original paint still intact. I noticed that it was not layered on thickly. It looks as the paint was mixed thin and applied with a brush.

I removed the data plate and I was able to find a very close color match to the un-faded paint under the data plate.

http://www.rapcoparts.com/sigaofpa.html



Gillespie Paint distributed by RAPCO. The paint color is: 34087 Lusterless Khaki Olive Drab

That is the color I used on my ambulance and I am quite happy with the match.

Howard Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 04:07 pm:

If interested see: Painters Magazine.... Page 251. Formula for U. S. Army Colors. Date June 1918. Olive, Medium, and Light drab.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hsYfAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA251&dq=mix+olive+drab+pain t+1918&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX5orewZXSAhWIOSYKHShzC7Q4ChDoAQgwMAU#v=onepage&q=m ix%20olive%20drab%20paint%201918&f=false


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard D. Dennis Byron, Georgia on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 05:50 pm:

One thing David stressed to me was the fact that there was no pre-packaged paint at the time. So each vehicle would have been painted with whatever some private in the motor pool had mixed up that day. Boggles the mind at the number of variations possible.

Howard Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard D. Dennis Byron, Georgia on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 05:56 pm:

http://www.ww1history.com/model-of-1917-gun-cart.html

Howard Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Thursday, February 16, 2017 - 06:04 pm:

Boris, I have a different slant on your request. When it came time to paint my new roadster, I rubbed back a patch of the blue top coat and took the panel with the original colour exposed to a paint supply house. They matched it by eye and checked that I liked it. I thought it was a bit off, and chose a slightly darker shade. When mixed, it was too dark, so back to their first selection. I ordered four litres, and waited while they mixed it. Imagine my surprise, and chagrin, when they handed me the can, now with the colour name on it.
ARMY OLIVE DRAB!!!
I do like the colour, but wish it had a different name.
I could get the mix formula for you, but don't know how that would translate for your suppliers.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Boris Forgerit on Friday, February 17, 2017 - 03:57 pm:

Thanks for your informations. Nice ambulance Howard ! An other one is under construction near my location.
I noticed that US WW1 restored vehicles colors are quite different. Sometimes it is darkened, sometimes clear ! I'll go to the paint dealer next week to see what we could find about Olive drab color in my country.

Boris


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 03:40 pm:

Here's my two cents worth. My research on my WWI machine gun carrier also left me with the impression that there were no "standars" yet developed for the US military vehicles. So, anything goes.

I elected to go with the RAPCO shade mentioned above, which is very similar, if not identical to my WWII GPW. Lusterless olive drab. I am painting over a red oxide primer and the shade is a little light for my personal tase, but it is what it is. I also adopted the approach that, since there was no "standard", any parts supplied from other vendors such as field gear, gun or gun mounts, cowl and tail lights, etc., might come in there own version of OD green. I have seen military vehicles where the current owner has used the single color throughout every step of restoration and finished the vehicle with a level of finish that was not available during the time period. So the vehicle looks like it was dipped in a paint can and looks better than it ever would have left the factory.

So, brushed on shades of OD green with slight variation in metal and wood shades and slight variations in accessories would probably be what occurred. But, it's your T. Do what you want.

The ambulances I have seen in person appear to be the marine shade of forrest green, or a much darker shade than the yellowish tan khaki green that we are discussing.

Painting my wood work currently, but here is a photo of what has been painted so far. A base coat of OD green with slightly darker green bells and whistles. I am representing mine as post war motor pool, so I'm leaving some brass for parades and inspections. I am sure a true combat T would have no reflecting brass or glass.

Good luck with your project. We'll have two brothers from another mother between us!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 09:55 am:

"Here's my two cents worth. My research on my WWI machine gun carrier also left me with the impression that there were no "standars" yet developed for the US military vehicles. So, anything goes. "


Interesting statement. I found three references that indicate the use of a formulated olive drab and the mix formula for the paint. In three shades of olive drab.

One was found in the "Painters Magazine...." Page 251. Formula for U. S. Army Colors. Date June 1918. Olive, Medium, and Light drab.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hsYfAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA251&dq=mix+olive+drab+pain t+1918&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjX5orewZXSAhWIOSYKHShzC7Q4ChDoAQgwMAU#v=onepage&q=m ix%20olive%20drab%20paint%201918&f=false


With that there were two references from the military technical manuals from 1906 and 1917 that states all signal corps vehicles will be painted olive - drab using a specific formula.

I would say that there was a standard, and that it was not a free for all for all hues of psychedelic olive drab.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard D. Dennis Byron, Georgia on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 10:39 am:

George, I still stand by my post that these paints were mixed in the field often times with what was or wasn't available on any given day and subject to human error. As an example I decided to try to find what canvas would have been used and was told many examples of restored vehicles were using light tan or brown and that wasn't appropriate as all vehicles used olive drab. Liking the look of the lighter canvas I decided to do a search of Google images from WWI and now have a large file of original pictures showing vehicles with a large array of color shades of canvas from very light to very dark.
It seems WWI standards were a lot less stringent than they are today probably because supplies are a lot easier to get today than then.

Howard Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 11:38 am:

To be argumentative - How did Google acquire colour photographs from 1914 to 1918 or the time period of World War One?

According to the Painters Magazine from 1918, there were three colours listed as olive drab - dark, medium and light.

Attached is from my collection of World War I memorabilia, a stenographic image showing a French mobile field hospital with x-ray machine. As can be seen these are not colourized images but black and whit taken during the conflict. The vehicle is a dark colour - is it a medium olive drab or a dark olive drab?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard D. Dennis Byron, Georgia on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 12:46 pm:

George, I fail to see what the existence of color photographs during WWI has to do with proving your point. Do you have a photo in color with proof of how it was developed and how accurate the image reproduced the vehicle's actual color? Your black & white image is proof of what??? I ask for your proof of an actual reproducible color because the USMC museum was unable to provide me with one when they were asked the same question a while back.

Howard Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 01:11 pm:

My point is there are technical manuals from WWI and publications of the period that give formulas of the colours that were suggested for military use. Granted some of the materials used in the mix -lead for example - may not be available. Yet there is material that can be substituted. Mixing the materials as suggested from the manuals and available articles will give a close example of the period colour.

No denying colour photographs were around from 1907, the name of the process was Autochrome Lumière, their actual colours maybe or are exaggerated. Hence going to the published source for a paint mix formula. The bulk of photographs from the period were black and white.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard D. Dennis Byron, Georgia on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 01:40 pm:

Until someone comes up with a better example than David O'Neal's un-faded original from a period vehicle I'm sticking with the color he provided.

Howard Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 09:23 pm:

"
According to the Painters Magazine from 1918, there were three colours listed as olive drab - dark, medium and light. "

My mistake. I thought we were discussing WWI, not post war.

"stenographic image showing a French mobile field hospital with x-ray machine"

My mistake, I thought we were discussing US colors, not French medical units.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 08:11 am:

Hi
I am at a loss. World War 1, ended 1918, so the date 1918 is within the time period of World war one. Yes?

My mistake showing the French vehicle in colourful black and white. How about a colour photo of a U. S. Army Tractor in olive drab?

But please explain to me why the 1918 paint mixture is post war. Note - is not post war a reference to WWII?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard D. Dennis Byron, Georgia on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 09:21 am:

George, I'm really trying to understand your view of this. Help me out. Does the above slide you posted appear to your eyes as actually being in color? I'm asking because on my computer I see black & white and this tractor could actually be dark red for all we know from this photo??

Howard Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 10:32 am:

Exactly. My point is this - colour photography was in its infancy beginning in 1907. So those colour photographs from WWI were not true colour. The colours are not what we would see with later film photography. Many early photographs were colorized or tinted by hand to give a "natural" rendition of a scene, individual or object. If you have a colour photograph from WWI, it is not a true colour. The bulk of the illustrations form the period were black and white photographs -- as the tractor.

I can agree that if you are fortunate to find a vehicle with drab, and it is not worn or faded then a close enough paint colour can be acquired.

As with the colour, I found two US Army Signal Corp descriptions of what they required as olive-drab painting of equipment. The main pigment is "raw umber."

If I were seeking a correct colour for a period piece, I would review the literature of the period. The information found in a Technical Manual should be more correct that a faded well used piece of equipment.

From the Signal Corp Manual- Olive drab:

6 lbs white lead (today substitute titanium oxide)
1 lb. raw umber.
1 pt. turpentine.
1 pt. japan drier.
2 pts. raw linseed oil.

A sample of the colour from raw umber.
https://www.goldenpaints.com/products/colors/heavy-body/raw-umber

Now I would not be so argumentative if you were fortunate to find an automobile related item such as an olive drab black out lamp still in the box, wrapped with what ever paper was used and cosmoline to protect it for 50 plus years. Having the olive drab from the WWII period.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Howard D. Dennis Byron, Georgia on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 05:41 pm:

Did you not read my statement from David O'Neal?

"I removed the data plate and I was able to find a very close color match to the un-faded paint under the data plate"

I'd say this is just as good an example as yours if not better because that plate covered that paint for the last 100 years.

Howard Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 08:37 am:

Howard - a lot of good information was exchanged. May we have a discussion again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Boris Forgerit on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 10:21 am:

I think that we can conclude that there was no typical color and that it was possible to meet various tints.
Here is the color found on a Adlake oil lamp I have from a WW1 US vehicle.
Adlake lamp ww1 1
Adlake lamp ww1 2

I went to the paint shop today and we found an olive tint but no American references RAPCO.


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