Replacing New day Timer with a TW Timer

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Replacing New day Timer with a TW Timer
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 01:32 pm:

I posted a thread last week that my T was running good except that it had occasional intermittent and random pops and backfires through the exhaust. I sent my Spark coils to Ron Patterson who tested them and they tested fine.

I respect Ron's advice and he said I have eliminated most trouble spots and recommended that I get a TW Timer, which uses a carbon brush and which, in his opinion, is the best and most trouble free timer to get, so I ordered one and got it today and am installing it, but, before doing so, I wanted to get a few pictures of the inside of the New Day so you all can take a look and see what you think. When I removed it, it gave off a strong electric smell. The brush is worn at an angle to such a degree that only about 3/4 of the brush makes contact with the contacts which appear to be scratched and burned. Judging by the appearance of my New day Timer, do you think it could be the source of the backfires and pops? I'm looking forward to seeing how the TW timer performs. Jim Patrick



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 01:48 pm:

Can you post a photo of the front of that timer ? Does it say "PATD" at the top or have an "S" ?

Looking at the inside, I'd have to say yes, it surely could cause misfiring !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 02:08 pm:

Maybe it would benefit from a good sanding and cleaning to smooth the contact surface:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/579748.html?1445203195


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 02:16 pm:

Looks like the problem is uneven contact surfaces. Evenly smooth up the surfaces and you should be OK. Use the method to smooth out the surfaces as shown in Mark's post or something similar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 02:42 pm:

If the TW performs as well as it does on mine, you'll like it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 05:18 pm:

Those smudges on the inside of the old timer look suspiciously like carbon tracks. Yes, those will mess up engine timing and create issues like you described. Take it off, clean it up and keep for a spare. You'll like the TW timer. I liked mine so well I bought a second for the engine going in my Tudor when its finished.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 06:01 pm:

I will repeat the question that Steve Tomaso posted. The front of the timer will confirm what I know that I suspect and I think Steve suspects it too. Neither of the timers pictured above are original New Day timers. I suspect they might be the so-called "S" type which have a track record measured in yards rather than miles. Please post a picture of the front side of the 2 timers. I have run original New Day timers in the past with great success but they were NOT made from the soft material like the current Repro NEW DAY timers have been made from. Some of the also have incorrect dimensions with regard to the critical depth from edge to face which must be exactly correct to keep from destroying the timer in very short order.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 07:38 pm:

It's no secret here I've always promoted the TW timer. In fact, I bought one the very day Tony Wiltshire posted on here about "his new timer" and have since equipped all my T's other than the firetruck I now no longer have with one.(Well, other than the '20 that came with the Tru-Fire). They work great, only need cleaned once a year, probably a new brush every 5K miles or so, and I will at least say though, they don't like it if the cam seal leaks oil. Other than that, fantastic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 07:56 pm:

I use the brush type exclusively on all my T's. I think the benefit of the brush is that it makes a positive contact longer, but only if the brush runs smoothly and not over bumps in the timer. I think in addition to the oil/dirt the timer needs to be smoothed. That would also eliminate the extra wear on the brush you are experiencing. Just my two cents.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Spainhower - Portland, Oregon on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 09:14 pm:

Ditto what John Regan said. I am fortunate to have an original New Day in my '15, with an NOS one still in the box just in case. I can't recommend them highly enough... just not the plastic reproduction ones. The TW is essentially the same design as the New Day, but with a radial brush instead of an axial one.

The brush material is as important as the body material, though. I made a graphite brush for my New Day in hopes of making the original body last longer. You can buy electric motor brushes and modify them to fit. The graphite brushes are grey, hard, and shiny. The carbon brushes are black and dull. Use the graphite ones. They don't wear nearly as fast, and they don't produce as much dust, which is a maintenance problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 09:30 pm:

It does look like you need a new timer. That cover should be smooth and not black or eroded areas on the insulated surfaces. Are you using magneto or battery? If on battery, there could be arcing when the rotor first makes contact. Not quite as likely on magneto. However with a worn brush,you are not making a good contact and possibly oil is also burning on the surface. Anyway, timers only last for a while and then need replacement. It could be the rough surface which causes the brush to wear unevenly. I had a New Day which the brush wore that way too, I finally replaced it with an Anderson Timer which has worked very well so far. I also hear good reports concerning the TW timer but no personal experience.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 10:02 pm:

For those who have asked for a photo of the front of the New Day Timer, here it is. I believe I purchased it from Snyder's several years ago.

Norm, I always run my T on MAG after starting it on BATT. I discovered today that the random, intermittent backfires and pops do not occur when the key is switched to BATT, but do occur when switched to MAG. Although I have the new type cam shaft seal, instead of the felt seal, there was some oil on the shaft inside the timer, as well as around the periphery of the New Day timer base, where it seals against the front cover plate.

One suggestion I received in this thread was to clean the lint from around my mag post, but I have Guinn Wooden bands, so there is no lint in my engine.

The TW Timer requires that the new type seal be installed instead of the felt seal. Also, the brass shield is not used because the TW brush assembly is supposed to seat against the cam shaft shoulder.

Thanks to everyone for your helpful responses. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 10:04 pm:

Oops. The lint suggestion was in the backfire thread. Not this thread. My mistake. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Saturday, February 18, 2017 - 10:23 pm:

It's too bad that sub-standard repro New Day timers in past years have made a bad name for a really good item. I ran an original New Day on my T over 50 years ago, never a minute's trouble, it very well may still be giving service.

Hutch in Spokane is making New Day timers, with a good track record, and his assurance that they are as good as the originals.

Jim, you may not have lint in your mag post, but check for splinters ! ;- )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 12:00 am:

Original New Day timers are the best. Anything else is not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 01:51 am:

Not only did you purchase the timer from Snyder but they are the source as well. They don't last very long and do not represent what a real New Day timer is like by even a small amount. Just look for the "S" below the tang where the timer rod inserts and that identifies it as the bad ones and that timer is the source of your pops and remaining ignition anomalies no doubt. Just for the sake of accuracy there was a source of very good reproduction New Day timers made by Gaslight for many years. I ran those with great success and they were the equal of the originals but they went away when the lower priced bad ones showed up and then there was a batch of the S type that had the wrong dimension from face to edge and those stuck out too far in front. It all had to do with a change to the hub thickness of the large cam gear and a "fix" being put in before the S maker knew what was really the issue and that whole batch of timers was just chaos with soft plastic and wrong dimensions and some had cam gears with thicker hub areas and others didn't depending on which gear they bought. A first class FUBAR. The end product was that the NEW DAY was a great timer with a horrible reputation that it didn't deserve.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 02:34 am:

Sounds like, instead of dressing down the face and keeping my S type New Day Timer for a spare, I should just cut my losses and toss it. Thank you for the info. Good to know. I hope others benefit. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 10:56 am:

Believe me, Jim - they will - if they read the reasons why.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Compton on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 11:37 am:

I ran a TW timer for a few months last year and checked it after maybe 200 miles to find that the carbon brush was worn down to the point that it was very difficult to re-install the holding wire in the tiny hole in the brush. Thinking that this could be a problem on the side of the road later on, I put my old restored original type New Day timer on and have the TW as a spare. Both timers functioned perfectly. Bruce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 12:49 pm:

If you are looking at a New Day timer, look for the words "NO OILING" The junk repop timers don't say that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Olson on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 04:25 pm:

So does anyone have the contact info for"Hutch in Spokane" who is reputed to make really good reproduction New Days?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 04:55 pm:

For clarification are the New Day timers that Snyders sells now the new reproduction timers that are made in Spokane? If they are they are supposed be pretty good. I don't think they are the ones that they sold years ago that were questionable. I believe they are made with better materials or so I've read here on this forum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 06:43 pm:

Rick & John
Talk to Royce first.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly Montana on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 06:57 pm:

Antique Auto Ranch. 509-535-7789.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 07:16 pm:

Bruce, that's really weird that you got so much wear so soon. We're having unusually warm weather here, so I took the opportunity to do my annual maintenance on my TW on the '13 that winters in its heated trailer in the barn. I already had the radiator off in order to do some hose changing so decided to open up the TW and clean and inspect. I have over 1700 miles total on this TW brush and it's only wore down maybe 1/16th. of an inch, still easy to get the little wire into the hole to set it. Put 1100 miles on it this past year, was actually surprised how little carbon dust was inside the timer cover.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Compton on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 10:10 pm:

Tim : I was surprised too. The timer worked perfectly, and probably still will if I ever need it. I'm wondering if the spring had been tampered with (stretched) before I got it as the wear sure was apparent in a fairly short time, contrary to all the other feedback. There was a fair amount of carbon dust in the bottom of the timer also. Cheers : Bruce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, February 19, 2017 - 11:02 pm:

I guess I'm not informed! What is a TW Timer? All I know of is originals! I have three T's with original New Day timers, and I rarely have to do anything with them!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 08:21 am:

Larry, a TW timer is basically a modern day version of the New Day, sort of. The brush as you know on the N.D. are what I would call held horizontal, while on the TW they stick up vertically out of the rotor. Pretty much same principal. The TW comes from it's inventor's name initials...Tony Wiltshire. He's Australian but lives I think in Indiana. Great guy. I've talked with him a number of times. Like any moving part, they're not perfect, but pretty dang close!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 10:32 am:

I installed a TW timer in 2014 and used it until I went to OK for a tour, someone wanted to see the brush arrangement so when I removed the cover the spring/brush flew out so fast and disappeared into the grass, outer space or wherever, we never did find it, I had a new Anderson style timer I installed and it is still there working great, I have a new spring and brush to install sometime.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Hutchinson on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 11:58 am:

Tip Top Timer (hutch) contact information, 509-220-0892


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Olson on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 01:55 pm:

Thanks Mark.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Robison on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 02:52 pm:

Just for reference I have 3000+ miles on one of Tip Top Timers New day timers. 500 of those miles was on my 2015 MT 500 car(I finished 3rd). I have nothing but rave reviews about the quality, durability, and timing accuracy. They are far Superior to the Snyders "S" New Day timer from decades ago. I too think it is a shame that a great timer has gotten a bad rap because the quality of prior reproductions were sub standard.

Here is what I know about the past reproductions.

1) The "S" New Day case was made from a plastic instead of bakealite this resulted in poor quality and durability. These timers can be ID'd by the "S" and the cases can be folded in your hand.

2) The Gaslight Version case was made from Bakealite. Their downfall was the brush construction. the Timing pin slot was mfg. in the wrong position resulting in "kickbacks" while starting. The brush also didn't fully retract when compressed, this caused an issue with thick timing gears because the timer case would ride on the brush and do the Hula rather than seat on the timing cover.

So far Hutch and Tom (tip top Timers) look to have done their homework and resolved the prior failures, and built a product close to original design.

Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Davis Houston TX on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 04:59 pm:

Irrespective of which timer is used, they will all need to be "looked at" frequently to ensure confidence that you have a good one. Ted Aschman came up with a novel way to make this inspection as easy as it can get. His idea was to use a 4 way trailer light plug/socket as the quick connect between timer and coil box. I've done this for years and it's so easy to do a "look at." I even have a spare set up so a on the road replacement is as simple as loosening the timer keeper and plugging in the replacement. Just my 2 cents worth which is about all it's worth. J.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 05:28 pm:

What Jerry says would work as long as you use the same kind of timer and the rotor is good. If you change from one type to another, you will need to replace the rotor and the cover.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Monday, February 20, 2017 - 08:08 pm:

OK, We know how to recognize the poor quality Snyders timers by the "S" on them, but how do we recognize the Gaslight timers?

Thanks, Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 09:52 am:

I look at the inside first. If the contacts don't have the small square in the middle, then it's not original. I have ORIGINAL New Days on three of my T's, and I only have to remove them perhaps every three years to blow out some dust. I then get a piece of sandpaper and sand the surface a bit, and reinstall. Piece of cake!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 10:09 am:

Some time pictures (thanks, Stan)

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/19154.html

Can't find the Gaslight pics, yet Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 10:04 am:

If the brush is made like the original, then I can't fly off into the weeds, correct?


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