This really could be more fun then one could stand. Sounds like we have a number of first time cars coming to attend.
Your car needs to comply with the current rules of F.A.S.T. So we all have a safe and fun event.
A few pictures of the racer for you pleasure, getting real close. Spent some time mocking up the body.
Sorry about the T wire wheels. I hope to have my restored wheels back from Dayton in time.
Looking good Mike. Wish I had my speedster finished by then ,but don't think it will happen.
It's a beauty Mike. I'm going to be at the rally and plan on watching but not competing in the hill climb.
Like you, I hope to be there. I am undecided about competition in the hill climb as I hear so many conflicting opinions about the rules, that I don't want get into a conflict over them.
The hill climb is run under FAST rules and classes which can be seen on their web page, also linked to the event on the Museum of American Speed page. Individual hosts of FAST events have added to rules and restrictions, but I have never seen them relax basic FAST rules.
I hear ya Les. I'm excited to be around others speedsters. They're unique and different enough to stand out from the rest of the crowd. They get conversations started wherever they go.
Besides, I hear there's some local over there with a big red six cylinder Ford that breezes into town like he owns the place. I've heard that big ol' Ford will run 70 mph. But I'd be willing to bet there'll be a few four cylinder buggies in town that week that'll be just a bit faster.
And Eric's posting just re enforces my concerns. I figure way easier to assume that I won't be welcome and if I am, then I will be pleasantly surprised!! Some comments I've heard imply that some tech inspectors may want to open up my engine there. Not happening!!
I just read the F.A.S.T rules from the website. Seemed pretty logical and straight forward to me. Plenty of classes to be in with a "T" They do specify that the parts are supposed to be from American "production" vehicles. I guess they do not want out and out purpose built racers, but street driven vehicles.
In my 30 years of vintage road racing pre-war cars, I have never witnessed a tear down or even a displacement check. The guys who get in trouble are usually the guys who do something foolish. The point of these events being to have fun, not try to prove how fast a 90 year old car can go.
So it would appear that the fact that I have a Made in Canada engine could disqualify me then based on Erik's comments. Then again, perhaps that is not how the rules will be interpreted. I figure better to assume I will not be legal than to assume I will be. Certainly i own several uniquely Canadian engines. And I will try my best to be there
The older I get the harder it's become for me, to retain what I've read. It's been one of my disappointments that over time, I can no longer enjoy a good book. It seems I'll get to about the second page of some reading and find I've lost my ability to remember what I read just one page ago. I think it's indicative of why I keep getting out of my La-Z-Boy, going out to the kitchen, standing there looking into the refrigerator or oven or some other appliance, trying to remember why I got out of my chair in the first place.
So, when I read the F.A.S.T. Rules I understood the classes for speedsters on the first page. Basically my car would fit in the speedster class T-4.
The general requirements and safety section (page 2) seem sensible and simple to understand. Currently my Speedster has the internal factory transmission brake and the rear wheel parking brakes. It appears I wouldn't make the requirements for four wheel brakes. My car is far from a stock configuration and I can't make a good argument for why I feel I should be allowed to run in the hill climb.
So now, when I read the class rules, I start to question my ability to meet them.
1. Frame is okay
2. All major components are where they belong. Although perhaps an argument could be made concerning the location of my fuel tank.
3. Next I have to refer to the rules for the modified class and meet them. The modified class says the frame can't be Zee'd but, the Speedster class says it can. Can I make an argument that one supersedes the other. My assumption would be that I can.
4. It appears I'd need a roll bar, I don't have a roll bar.
Bottom line is, I'm out of the hill climb unless I want to invest in some safety requirements. I'm not saying anything negative about the safety requirements and it doesn't bother me that I can't participate.
When reviewing the General Requirements and Safety I see it does state that all components must be American automotive production items. Is it necessary to try to decide whether that means America as in the United States of America, or America like in North America? Are Canadian components American components?
Then, at the bottom of page three the FAST Rules and requirements has a disclaimer that says the whole works is subject to Tech Committee approval.
I'm still going to be there to watch.
Phew, long winded dissertations make me tired.
Precisely. I figure show up and have as much fun as possible. Life is short, enjoy it as much as possible. Avoid scraps and fights. My basic motos
Mike - For class T-4 your car must pass a basic safety inspection. Steering tight with all required cotter pins and set screw in the gear box. Brakes function properly, wheels tight, etc. If you use the MTFCA safety checklist your car will pass the safety inspection in Lincoln. The only things required not on the MTFCA checklist are seatbelt and helmet with a full face shield. Roll bar is not required, auxiliary brakes are not required. Having fun is required.
Thank you, it's not my intention to run in the hill climb. I was simply taking a run at the way the FAST Regs. are written to see if I could make it through without confusion. Just like Forest said "I am not a smart man", so I figured if I took a look and made it through, especially seeing as this is my first time at the Rally, than it couldn't be too hard to understand them.
As I mentioned, my retention for what I've read isn't what it used to be, but I was able to get through the regs. without too much trouble. But, as I described, I still had a couple minor issues. However, as I said, this is my first time, by next year, I'll bet that even with my limited intelligence, I'll know what it takes to have a car prepared for the hill climb.
I just hope I'll be able to get my hands on a registration form soon and that I'll have the finances put together in time to do it.
Looking good, Mike ! Looks a bit better than when I found it !
Steve- the dog or the car?
I was thinking that was a stump!! Maybe it is a dog!!!
FAST specifies a model T block. A Canadian block is a model T block. I see no problem there. I have never seen or heard of an engine teardown at a FAST event. Roll bars are strongly recommended for the fastest cars but not required and nobody seems to have one except our Wild Cherry car. I anticipate this will change at some point, so we put one on. These are just my observations, I am not an officer of FAST or tech inspector. Very few model T's are fast enough to worry the model A guys and need a roll bar. I hope that will change. There are guys on this forum that can do it. We built the Cherry to beat the A guys at the game they have dominated since the end of the Long Beach days and have come within a couple of tenths of a second several times. King of the hill is the goal here and the local A guys are scared of a T for the first time. Please bring yours to Lincoln and show them we can race!
Mike Bender, I wish I knew the history on your Speedster. From the looks of the photo Sreve posted it might have a story to tell.
I don't guess that I'm going to be a "king of the hill " threat with a flathead and a T planetary transmission!!
All the "hot shoes " I've heard of run fancy OHV and wizzy transmissions it seems
King of the hill is almost always an overhead model A or B engine with a T5 Warner 5 speed tranny. I have seen a hot model A take it with a 904 Chrysler automatic. We use a Ford C4. The automatic has its ups and downs. You don't have to let up on the throttle to upshift but the auto consumes more horsepower pumping oil. A skilled driver with a synchronized stick tranny will usually prevail. The model T transmission's drawback is that with only two speeds you have a big ratio jump on the upshift. With enough power this is not a problem. Many drag racers use a two speed power glide tranny.
Les may not become King of the hill but I bet it will be hard to beat him with a flathead model T.
I wish I was going. Maybe next time? While a lot of people know me as a "speedster guy", I mostly really lean toward horseless carriages and early Ts, and prefer "era correct". As such, I have never really gotten into the hill climbs, and prefer Endurance Runs and long tours, whether all speedsters or a mix of factory cars and speedsters. All the reports I have read of these Speedster Reunions make me sure that I do want to go there, and hope to.
But, that is me.
Although I have never gotten really involved with the FAST crowd, I know quite a few people that are, and really like the group.
While I do like the admittedly restrictive rules of the SCVMTFC Endurance Run (and have explained why several times in the past), I have no problem with the FAST rules either. The old adage "their meet, their rules" certainly applies. Their rules have never kept me from participating in any speedster meet. Only my family and finances have done that.
I would encourage anyone on this forum with an interest in speedsters to attend, and participate at your own comfort level! If I went, I might compete in the hill climb, solely for the fun of it. Or I might just watch it. That would more likely be decided on how crowded the competition was than anything else. I will never have a car that could really be competitive at their meets. If the day were filled, why stretch it out beyond a comfort level just for my silly effort? If the competition were shy a bit? I would enjoy doing so just for kicks and giggles.
The most fun I ever had in my life, was the Calistoga Classic dirt track racing reenactments (over 40 years ago)! I had the slowest car there. And I LOVED it!!!!!
Our history is important. It is what got us to where we are. We should cherish and preserve much of that history. And we should enjoy it! (As well as learn from it.)
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Any post vintage modifications, like a modern transmission would seem to be unsporting, in my opinion. That sort of thing is a never ending exercise that will ruin it for everyone if it gets out of hand. Then you will see mandatory roll cages and fire systems and blah blah blah. That is modern racing, and while there is a place for that, it is not something that should be undertaken with Model T's
Americans have been able to look at different types of assemblies for years, and come up with modifications that make them more robust in design and efficient at meeting and exceeding their intended purpose. It's for that reason that I think a proper engineer with sufficient knowledge would be able to suggest design changes to the Model T transmission that would optimize its reliability and performance.
Erik T, To a point, I am on your side. So you better be careful, people may learn to dislike you as well ! All kidding aside. I see this issue from both sides. On the one hand, some of us try to preserve these cars like what was. On the other hand, modifying model T Fords for racing and hill climb purposes is a hobby/passion that has continued continuously since 1909. Using modern modifications to be king of the hill is something that has been going on for a long time.
Many people in this hobby try to work both sides of that street. I cannot afford the passion I have (but refuse to give up), so I am not going to branch out into one I cannot afford (especially since it is even more expensive).
There is room in this world for both. Although, that does not necessarily mean rules have to allow both at all aspects of all meets. I do think that some of the best meets should involve both, like the speedster reunion in June.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
That WAS my second Shepard !
Story is that single-seat racer ran on the board tracks in the Tacoma, WA area. It supposedly came out of a shed in Sequim, WA. BUT the fellow I got it from kept the Fronty head & radiator.
Most of the clubs have a cut off date, say, 1941 or 1959 or which ever date is appropriate for that type of car. I agree with a the rules as specified in the F.A.S.T. and they divide the classes up on sensible lines. As soon as you fit a roll bar to a car, it becomes a dedicated racing machine. Unless you want to wear a helmet down to the corner store. Even a well padded roll bar is a serious head injury risk in a street driven car.
Having the "unlimited" class where anything goes is fine. Just lets us not confuse the two sports. Vintage racing Vs. Modern racing. Vintage racing is about having cars prepared to the period when they ran, not about ultimate speed. Modern racing is about out and out competition, but even there they have rules, such as displacement, certain tires, Etc.
The Lincoln Hillclimb sounds like a fun event I look forward to doing with a speedster some day.
I agree with Mike Vaughn. My car seems to fit into the T-4 class. This discussion is really starting to change my thoughts about running my car up that darn hill. I didn't want to before because this is the first time I've attended the Hillclimb and I thought being a spectator first and jumping in later would be the way to go. But it sounds like there are enough people around to assist me in getting through it that I might just go ahead and try it. I have some work to do on my Speedster to be sure I'm ready for the tours anyway so the whole experience should benefit me farther down the road. We'll see.
Oh, and I don't want to see any of those Model A guys crying if my bone stock T shows them up.
Crap, I might have just shot myself in the foot.
Mike G, I think you should go for it! Shoot for the hill! Have a great time! Most T speedster guys are like most model T people. There are a lot of them that like to help the newcomers. As I said before, I never really got into the hill climbs. But like most antique car tours, endurance runs, etc, it is mostly about really good times with really good people (and historic cars).
So GO! Drive carefully, and ENJOY to the fullest! W2
(I am going to go suck my thumb now )
Eric. Both Art & Olive Moore and Denny Spreckard have hoops /roll bars But they are model a powered and both Art and Olive have paid off having these hoops/ roll bars All 3 of these cars are really fast, Denny won 2 years ago in Nebraska!
The FAST rules and classes work well so that only similarly equipped cars compete with each other. We built the Wild Cherry to be the king of the hill. To do that, you have to beat the model A's. Working with a T block presents a handicap that requires us to take advantage of every provision of the rules, and we have done that. The Cherry is just inside the rules. After all, it is not a victory if you cheat, right? When we start prevailing at these events, I expect some pushback from some of the A guys who are getting a little testy about us. We made sure that if that happens we won't be disqualified after a race for a rules violation. If they change the rules, we will adapt with the rules. Race on.
It will certainly be a interesting and educational experience.
Today I am getting close to having the intake manifold finished for the installation of a pair of 40 DCOE Webber carbs (hey the price was right!!!). Obviously my target is around 100 HP.
Whoa Les, I'd love to see a photo of that manifold.
Guys, the speedster reunion in Lincoln,NE is put on by car guys that like to have FUN!
My family and I set up the hill and try to put on a FUN SAFE hill climb for every one to enjoy.
We run every thing from bone stock T's and A's to some of the finest banger hill climb cars in the USA and beyond. We even had one if those six cylinder Model K's run the hill.
The rules for the hill climb are in place to make sure we are safe as we are having FUN! We want every body to be able to come back for the next Speedster Reunion.
There are 21 different classes listed in the F.A.S.T rules, they take up one page. The rules are only three pages long, we should be able to find a class your car can run in.
Please come you will have a great time and you will want to come back again and again.
Remember Speedster reunion only happens every other year make it this year, we will be waiting for you!
The Devine Family
I am all for it! Once again, though, just wishing I could go. Maybe 2019 if I am still around.
If you can make it? GO!
Very well said Erik
Hi, speedster fans. I am new to this hill climb discussion -- just learned about it today. I am the 2017 Speedsters Reunion Director, and hope to clear up a few misconceptions based on comments in your earlier postings.
Any Model T, A or B engine, regardless of where it was originally produced (so long as it was not produced after 1934), is an acceptable engine for our hill climb.
Where FAST hill climb rules say "required" or "shall be equipped", then we will enforce those rules. If the wording says something is "recommended" or "strongly recommended", then that is a sincere suggestion, usually for your and others' safety, but is not a requirement to compete.
If you don't own a helmet and don't want to buy one just for our hill climb, we always have 3-5 helmets in various sizes that you can borrow while here.
Cars competing in our hill climb will be competing only against similarly equipped and/or modified cars; the King of the Hill award is the only trophy we award that is not class-specific.
The hill on which we race is what I consider to be a "modest incline." Several of the California competitors have commented to me that this hill is a nice balance between too steep and too flat.
If you or any of your friends have more questions about the rules or any other aspects of our reunion, please post them here and I will gladly answer them, of feel free to call me at 402-598-2947 (mobile) after 8:00 AM or before 9:30 PM central (I do need my beauty rest!) If you need an event flyer or registration form, let me know and I'll get one to you either with an e-mail or snail mail.
Hope to see you in Lincoln during the 2017 Reunion (June 21-24.)
Speedway Motors Museum of American Speed
Richard has been involved for many years and he does a fantastic job. Makes everyone feel welcome.
This is my car, It has a model T frame, rear end,front end,wheels, and steering gear. The engine and transmission is a very tired model A. Currently no seat belt.
Is this something that I can enter the hill climb with?
I can't comment on your car. However I'm now pretty confident that what I'm building will be legal
Richard works at Speedway Motors. He is not connected to the hill climb. Mike Vaughn is the man you would want to contact. His name is earlier in this post if you want to PM him.
As long as your car passes the MTFCA inspection, and you add seat belts you should be good to go.
I'll be there representing the Ford six cylinder class...
John - I believe that your car will qualify for class SP1 (flat head speedster with Model A or B block). Seat belt is required.
Richard is in fact, in charge of the event. I would indeed check with him.
Do all cars have to have seat belts for the hill climb? Or only some classes?
All cars. There is no exemption in the rules for stock class cars.
Does my leather helmet and goggles count as a safety helmet? Or could I use my WWI tin hat? I like to go "era correct" you know.
Wayne,Does this mean that you will be there?
No chance for this year. But it is definitely on my bucket list.
One does need to keep dreaming.
Looks like I stand corrected. Sorry Mike and Richard.
Definitely worth putting on your bucket list.
Soo, guess I don't qualify with my 1928 4 banger Chevrolet 4 port powered sprint car. I think that's discrimination. If this is true, then I want to register a protest.
While not as popular as the F#$& powered cars, We are a dedicated group of enthusiasts that support our make, and if memory serves it was Mr Chevrolet that provided the much needed boost for the otherwise lethargic stock underpowered F#$& car. It seems it took Mr "Chevrolet" to make some very popular and productive upgrades that served F#$% owners well on the track and street for many years. Without the "Frontenac" upgrades the F#$%'s would still be in the "also' ran class. Yes, you can argue there were others that also provided upgrades but Frontenac was far superior to any other manufacture.
So why is it you can proudly use "Chevrolet" bolt on upgrades but will not allow the use of a Chevrolet motor? I'm guessing you F#$% guys are really are afraid of the competition???
Now I must add the disclaimer as over the years I have owned numerous F#$% powered model t racing machines, one of which you will see as your tour the museum in Lincoln, that being the "Riverside Special" mounted on a TT truck. So I'm not biased just wonder why no other 4 bangers allowed?
I certainly hope I'm misinformed. Please enlighten a poor broken down misguided Chevrolet 4 banger owner
Your Chevy powered car I think should fit in one of the classes, and if the fastest overall will be noted. It is no a Ford only event. Most are but not all.
Read the rules and become informed.
All pre 1935 4 cylinder USA built cars are welcome. It does not matter who manufactured it. There is a hill climb class for non Ford vehicles.
F.A.S.T. HILL CLIMB—CLASSES (Revised 3/14) Effective 1/15
S-1 All stock, as original, open body style Model A’s plus all coupes, cabriolet’s and pickups.
S-2 All stock, as original, closed body style Model A’s, except those listed above in S-1 class.
S-3 All Commercial, as original, TT, AA, BB trucks.
ST-1 All body styles as in S-1 with minor changes for touring type of cars. Only A or B blocks allowed, modifica- tions are limited to a single carburetor of any type, a stock looking head (no Winfield, etc.), exhaust modifica- tions okay, a stock or replacement battery ignition (no magnetos) and a stock or touring cam. Wheels can be stock Ford, any 16” aftermarket or General Jumbo’s. Any manual transmission and/or overdrive is allowed.
ST-2 All closed A’s, as S-2 above (same equipment as ST-1).
T-1 All stock, as original, Model T’s (Except TT).
The Modified classes must have original style bodies (including replicas;
i.e. fiberglass, etc.) and powered by T, A or B blocks as required.
M-1 Flathead light, S-1 type of cars plus all flathead powered cars.
M-2 Flathead heavy, closed bodied cars as S-2 with modified flatheads.
M-3 Overhead valve light, as M-1 only with OHV equipped engine.
M-4 Overhead valve heavy, as M-2 only with OHV equipment.
M-5 All flathead modified cars with automatic transmission and/or quick change rear end. Any A/B block with production style body.
M-6 All Overhead modified cars with automatic transmission and/or quick change rear end. Any A/B block with production style body.
T-2 Modified flathead Model T’s, other than speedsters.
T-3 Modified OHV Model T’s, other than speedsters.
All Speedsters are required to have some type of body configuration.
SP-1 Flathead powered speedsters (A or B Block).
SP-2 Overhead powered speedsters (A or B Block).
T-4 Flathead powered speedsters (T Block).
T-5 Overhead powered speedster (T Block).
X Unlimited Speedsters—All Speedsters, flathead or OHV powered, not required to be registered or street legal, must still meet all general requirements and safety.
H Historic: Vintage race cars (including replicas), pre-1935 American production engines, 4 cylinder only.
O All other 4 cylinder cars powered by pre-1935 non-Ford built blocks.
I am now better informed and stand corrected. I will be there in spirit this year but I will participate in 2019 if I'm alive and kickn'
The Chevrolet sprint car will be on site and ready to roar. I'm assuming as my car is a restoration of an original 1920's Overland sprint car with 1928 Chevrolet motor as it apparently performed when built, would qualify for the "Historic" Vintage race cars class.
thank you for the clarification,
Where is the event held at?
How can I find information about the event?
www.museumofamericanspeed.com and click on events
Life isn't always fair. I had planned on being at the reunion. I was putting away the money. I was planning the trip costs. I made my motel reservations. I was ready to go. Then I was reminded I have family obligations that take priority over it all.
So, I'm going to start planning for 2019. I'm considering some improvements on the Speedster that'll include more power and more safety.
I wish I'd paid more attention to my scheduled obligations for this years reunion. I seriously feel left out. I know I'm going to miss a good time and an opportunity to meet some good people. So regardless of who's graduating from college, who has a baby due, or how bad anybody wants to get married, I'm not going to be available!!!
Mike are you a where of the speedster rally in Portage Wisconsin. Closer and maybe you cam make it a day or two. Al www.speedsterrally.com