Drive shaft end wear?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Drive shaft end wear?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 08:59 pm:

Hi, My drive shaft has a funny wear to it? I am pulling the babbit bushing and installing a brass one. I don't have the brass one here yet. Does this drift shaft end look ok to use? Drive shaft end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 09:14 pm:

My OP;
Short simple answer, no not really. If it were me I would get it turned down/polished and a new bushing made to give the proper fit which is approx .004-.006 clearance. If it's turned down the stock bushing will be oversized for the now undersized shaft. Of course a lot would depend also on the condition at the sleeve end. If the sleeve was loose and keyway messed up, time for new driveshaft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, February 21, 2017 - 10:04 pm:

Clean it up with emery paper or Scotchbrite, then let's take another look. It's ugly now but it may not be toast. Your largest stress is in the square to round transition, not in the round part of the shaft. We will hope that circular groove is not too deep.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 12:29 am:

It's not the stress it is load carrying at the bushing that I would be concerned with. If the bearing area is worn down it can allow drive shaft whip and vibration.
How worn down is the area where the corner/edge meet the round bearing area? Bearing area should be the same diameter as the curved corners of the square.
I think this area is much over looked when people rebuild their rear ends, all the emphases is on the other end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 01:42 am:

If you were putting a new bronze bush in the tube then this shaft might fit it. Often the new bushes are a little undersized for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 05:59 am:

I can't believw that is an original Ford driveshaft.Scares even me.Stress risers galor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 06:18 am:

In other words,l have NEVER seen a T driveshaft with that sharp step at the rear end of the u-jount sqare.Nothing -l- know of could account for that groove to the rear.This is something somebody made,and not well


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 07:53 am:

I would toss it and go look for better one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 10:42 am:

Jim,

I agree. I don't like it either. Not a Ford made part. I would contact John Regan at Fun Projects to see if he has any of this "correct" new shafts still available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 10:51 am:

What Jerry said.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 11:32 am:

"get it turned down/polished and a new bushing made to give the proper fit"

"Bearing area should be the same diameter as the curved corners of the square."

If the shaft is turned down/polished and a bushing w/a smaller ID made to fit, how is the square part going to go through the bushing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 11:46 am:

You turn the corners of the square to the same diameter. :-) The drive shaft has the end turned to the needed diameter of the bushing then the flats are milled leaving the corners/edges as you see them, rounded to the same radius as the bearing area.
If you look at the end of the U-joint the corners have a radius to them, not sharp. The load should be carried by the flats of the U-joint not the corners/edges.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 01:41 pm:

Yikes.
That IS different.

A typical shaft

drive shaft

I was going to ask if the radius's could be put back but I needed to read Mark's last bits to understand.

Duane


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 01:54 pm:

Seeing the two sample on the same page, good point about the transition from flat to round.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 02:14 pm:

Yes, and a lot, if not most, of the new shafts offered by suppliers have the same squared off transition as Ignacio's shaft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 05:07 pm:

Here is another pic, wiped cleaner.

Drive shaft end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, February 22, 2017 - 05:29 pm:

Get a new shaft from John Regan. As far as I know his are the only ones made correctly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Friday, February 24, 2017 - 03:28 pm:

Have contacted John Regan. Funny how Model T world there are lots of John's. In the Corvair world there are lots of Ed's. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Friday, February 24, 2017 - 08:25 pm:

That's a funny observation Ignacio! :-)
John has a new drive shaft coming your way?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Friday, February 24, 2017 - 09:20 pm:

Come on guys, when did you ever hear of a T driveshaft failing because it had squared off flats?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Friday, February 24, 2017 - 09:30 pm:

Richard read the thread carefully.This has odd problems,apparently homemade,of unknown steel.As fast and loose as l've played it,on occaision, when building a 'fun'car,we called 'em,l wouldn'thave this on the farm except ss a prybar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, February 24, 2017 - 09:43 pm:

There are all sorts of issues with Ignacio's rear end. I am told this drive shaft measures 53 inch in length. That is too short by more than just some tolerance. The rear end halves are 1913/1914 but the spool and drive shaft housing are of the later style and not 1913/1914. The thing has been redrilled to relocate the steel pins that hold the steel thrust washers in place. I just hate to see Ignacio put more money into this funky rear end since I think it has been very likely modified even more but I can't be sure and sure don't want to sell him a driveshaft that is then modified to fit like this one. Is there anybody local to him that has done a rear end or two that can take a look at what is going on. I want him to just buy a whole 1923-1925 rear end and restore it since this thing scares me and I sure don't feel comfortable giving him advice on what to do when I can't see the whole thing up close and personal. Pictures don't always tell much. If that shaft measure exactly 53" then my driveshaft is not going to fit being too long. I wonder if the driveshaft housing was shortened in a repair of some sort.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Friday, February 24, 2017 - 10:00 pm:

Jim read my thread carefully. I am not offering an opinion about the particular driveshaft but the comments about the squared off flats.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Friday, February 24, 2017 - 10:29 pm:

I re-measured the drive shaft more carefully and it is 53.5 inches. I don't have the Hyatt bearing or the pinion gear off so my measurement is somewhat inaccurate. I can take it all off and re-measure if necessary in the morning.

The issue is that this car tells a story of a sandwich crash which is almost certainly why it ended up with a 13-14 diff on a late drive shaft. For whatever quirky reason I'd like to preserve that history if possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Friday, February 24, 2017 - 10:57 pm:

Preserving history is a wonderful thing when it comes to our T's, However i don't understand how using a cobbled together differential qualifies in this case, especially when it comes to safety.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Friday, February 24, 2017 - 11:25 pm:

I think we are going to go with changing the drive shaft housing and collar to an early so it should all work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, February 25, 2017 - 01:40 am:

Ignacio,
I think you're going the wrong way with this. There was a reason Ford changed the axle design. If you go for the later, correct rear axle, you can sell you early housings for more than the later rear end will cost you.
Yes, the repair was quirky, but not as significant as you're thinking. Document it and then fix it properly; you'll be much happier in the long run!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Saturday, February 25, 2017 - 01:19 pm:

Ignacio, The odds are that a fairly new 1922 Model T that was involved in a crash in say 1923 and needed a used replacement rear end would have use a typical late teens or early twenties rear end, they would have out numbered the 1913-14 type by at least five to one and had less wear. Your 1913-14 rear end ended up in your car much later than the Model T or Model A era. You would be better off going with the correct 1922 rear end housings and using the best parts you can get.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, February 25, 2017 - 02:42 pm:

Ignacio I think your best bet is to get the later and correct rear end for your T. They are much more plentiful that the 14 that you have.
A good place to find what you need is the upcoming meet at Chickasha Ok. in a few weeks if you have the time. I didn't go last year but the several years I went before there was always rear ends and parts there for the later more common rear ends from 17-25.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 03:54 am:

In my experience, the bearing surface which runs in the whitemetal bush in the torque tube and the distance across opposite corners on the square section are one and the same, indicating that they were machined in the same pass. It is quite acceptable to turn down the shaft somewhat to get a clean surface on which the bushing runs, but the squared section corners need to be done in the same pass.

In Ignatio's last photo it appears that the bearing surface is turned down, but not the squared end, making it impossible to fit the square through the bush, if that bush is reamed to fit the shaft.

Time to find a genuine replacement.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 05:06 am:

Iganacio, I think you need to step back and take a deep breath. You seem to be hell bent on trying to fix this in the wrong way. You need to stop trying to make this mix of parts work, and get the correct ones. As has been said, then sell the earlier parts to someone that needs them to offset your costs. It ain't mine, but that's what I would do. Don't get in too big of a hurry to get it going, and then regret it later. Don't ask how I learned that. :-( Do it right the first time and take your time to research everything. You'll like it! :-) JMHO Dave


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