Question re early handbrake

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Question re early handbrake
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 10:53 am:

Does anyone know when the flipper on the early handbrake changed from a flat flipper diamond shaped to one oval with curved edges. Also what year(s) the flipper rivets had cotter pins on one side rather than formed heads on both sides? I had a Dec 1911 chassis with rivets with cotter pins but don't know the dates they were used.

The first photo shows the early style flat flipper without curved edges, the second shows a flipper with rivets and cotter pins.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 11:20 am:

Richard-
My November 1911 has the oval type release with curved edges. I don't know if it was original to the car or not.

All of my cars have the release riveted on. I suspect the pins and cotter pins were a repair.



: ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 11:41 am:

Ok Keith, that's not you! :-) Was that taken at Fred's? Must be because I have the closed car cowl behind him, on the right. You can see it just under the tree.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 11:54 am:

Hello, Keith and Mark. That was a happy day!
;^)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 01:35 pm:

My happy day came a few days after the sale when I got to pick up the leavings. Wish I had money to to to a actual sale. The cowl and some other parts that the more discerning shopper's ;>)didn't want came to live at my house. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, February 26, 2017 - 06:39 pm:

In my experience, the pins held in place with split pins were changed to rivets before the release handle with the rounded over sides was introduced. The flat release handle could be fixed with either pins and split pins or with rivets, the rivets being later in production.

An additional question I have is when the rod connecting the release handle to the pawl was changed from having forged eyes at each end rather than the later bent round ends.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 10:48 am:

Hi Allen, do you know if the pins that preceded the rivets were a short lived item or were they used from the beginning of Model T production until they were changed to rivets?

Re your additional question, the handbrake in my first photos with the flat flipper has the earlier forged eye connecting rod and rivets to hold the flipper rather than pins. As stated earlier, my Dec 11 chassis came with the flat flipper handbrake held by pins, so those with rivets were used after that date. Since the one in the first photo has rivets and a forged eye connecting rod, the forged eye must have still been in used at least during the period following Dec 11. Follow all that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 10:49 am:

Mark, I thought Kim purchased all that was remaining at the end of the sale. I know he had to bring a flat bed trailer to haul it away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 11:01 am:

:-) As I said, I got the leavings. No money spent except a little gas. But (wink-wink) he over looked or chose not to take a few goodies! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 11:24 am:

Richard: Too bad you didn't post a side view of photo #1. I've often wondered about that too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 05:52 pm:

Richard, I found a handbrake cross shaft at an auction a few years ago, and recognised it was something different. I sought details from one of our experts on the early cars and some of what he told me refers to the topic.
The pins and split pins were used on early production to allow the assembly of brass plated components. The pins were flat headed, rather than domed like rivets. I presume once brass plating was deleted, the assemblies could be made with rivets and then painted.
The handbrake shaft on my 1912 car, built up from parts, has the diamond shaped flat release with rivets. This would indicate that rivets were used before the rounded release was introduced. Your second photo contradicts this. Could it have been re-built this way, possibly with round head pins?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 06:41 pm:

According to Ford, the flange around the edge of the pawl release handle was dropped in early August of 1914.

So the flanged style was pre-'15 and the flat style '15 and later.

Larry, you should know this! You were with me at the Archives when we looked it up!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 08:14 pm:

R.V., I think you have that backwards. Flat style first, then flanged.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 08:21 pm:

Nope. That's what Ford says, in the drawings and the releases.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren F Rollins on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 08:55 pm:

Allan I agree with you. Define flanged R V. Maybe language is barrier .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 03:28 am:

I'm confused too.( OK, not hard to do.:-() I have NO experience with the earlier T's, but ALL of the black era T's that I have been around, and that's not as many as a lot of guys, had what I would call a "flanged" style handle. Maybe we need more pictures.:-) Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren F Rollins on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 08:58 am:

Larry, We need your input on this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 11:24 am:

I'll check some more. The earlier handles have less of a flange than the later ones as I recall. It seems to me Ford had a way of stake riveting those springs to the handle. My '13 roadster has rivets, and it appears to me that spring may have been replaced at some point. While going through some of my NOS parts yesterday, I found a NOS spring. It is raven finished, and the upper portion of the spring is contoured to fit the handle. Interesting discussion here. Let's keep it going.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 03:32 pm:

The notes I took at the Archives when I looked up the brake handle pawl lift state that Ford eliminated the flange in early August of 1914. I will re-check and probably get a copy of the Releases containing that information. I'm very meticulous about my notations; ask Larry; he's seen my notebook, but I am a bit curious as to why I didn't record the exact date of the change. Probably because I was satisfied that, according to the information, my car's handle was correct, and that was all that I was interested in. Anyway, I will re-check and confirm the information on my next trip--I've added it to my list--and this time will write down the date.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By stuart clipson on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 08:38 am:

when did the brake lever go from brass plated to painted and what components were plated and polished?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 10:17 am:

Below are photos of an unmolested hand brake assembly from my stash. How this fits into the timeline discussion I'm not quite sure because some the design aspects I previously believed to be correct are now being countered by others.

This unit has a flat flipper, rivets (not clevis pins with cotter pins), forged eye control rod, and forged neutral cam:







My understanding was the progression went something like this:

1. Flat flipper, clevis / cotter pins, brass plated.

2. Flat flipper, rivets, plating dropped (my thinking is late 1910 calendar year production, but that's not documented).

3. Flanged flipper, rivets.

This is purely from discussion with others, but my understanding was a hand brake assembly of the type pictured above could be back-dated by replacing the rivets with clevis pins and having the handle and related parts plated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 11:03 am:

This is a 1910 Runabout in the yard behind the Piquette plant. Notice how flat the brake release lever is, also that the entire assembly is brass plated.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 11:17 am:

What is a flipper? Are you referring to the squeeze handle? According to my Ford parts book, the handle is called a pawl lift assy. My handbrake off my '13 is just like the one Walt posted above.
It has no clevis pins either, and the forged cam.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 11:22 am:

I referred to the squeeze handle as the flipper because that terminology was already being used by the o.p. at the start of the thread and I thought it was best for continuity.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren F Rollins on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 11:37 am:

Larry ,the assembly on my 13 same as yours. When did the pawl lift assembly change to the type used through the remainder of production. Some say late 14. What do you think?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren F Rollins on Thursday, March 30, 2017 - 11:50 am:

This is a good topic. What can be added? Were 13 and full production 14 the same?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Thursday, March 30, 2017 - 01:26 pm:

Not to be pedantic, but Ford called it the "pawl lift handle."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Friday, March 31, 2017 - 10:11 am:

I'm working on my original '13 controller shaft assembly now. I assumed the pawl lift handle spring had been changed at some point, but after looking at the photo that Walter Higgins posted, it is exactly the same. So, can we agree that the flipper is the pawl lift handle? Might as well use Fords terminology.
I've been trying for years to get folks to start using splash shields instead of splash aprons for the running boards. I finally got Russ to change the judging guidelines. I'll find out when I buy the latest edition at Bakersfield next week!


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