Teardown time begins

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Teardown time begins
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Monday, February 27, 2017 - 10:27 pm:

[URL=http://s738.photobucket.com/user/thomc1957/media/0227171924_zpspfnr6htv.jpg.html][IMG]http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx24/thomc1957/0227171924_zpspfnr6htv.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s738.photobucket.com/user/thomc1957/media/0227172045_zpsteff5l0n.jpg.html][IMG]http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx24/thomc1957/0227172045_zpsteff5l0n.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
I will be roving the rearend from my car later this week, but today I wanted to start checking the situation out so I tore into the driver side. Found all pretty good , I guess. The outer bearing is an old original , but looks like new. It had practically no grease in it though. The sleeve appears to have been replaced but it was not flush with the housing. It actually stuck out about 1/32 inch. Enough that I got a grip on it with pliers and pulled it out. I guess someone didn't know to grind off the inner end to make it flush. I tried to hook the inner seal with a bent wire and remove it, but could not. There is a small gap between the axle shaft and the inside of the seal but not enough to get my wire in there. The seal looks like it might be the new style. I hope I don't find any problems farther into this .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 09:08 am:

Assuming you break the axle housing in half, you can push out that seal with a piece of PVC pipe from the pumpkin end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 10:09 am:

I might have damaged the seal trying to remove it. I have already ordered a new pair. I will be splitting the housings, I just wanted a preview.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 12:36 pm:

Tommy I hope you ordered the modern neoprene inner seal. They work great. I learned from a friend that when you install it put a bead of the high oil resistant black RTV on the metal back of it prior to pushing it into the axle tube. Also use a rag soaked in lacquer thinner on the end of a screwdriver to clean the lip inside the axle tube. The RTV will adhere better if its clean.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 02:31 pm:


I agree about putting some goo on the seal, but I put it on the inboard side that butts against the end of the tube.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 02:32 pm:

Thanks Steve..that's actually what I was trying to convey. I made it sound like the opposite side, hope I didn't confuse Tommy!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 03:53 pm:

What I have ordered is the neoprene seals like in Steve's picture. Actually, I bought a pair of the old leather ones first , by mistake, then ordered the good ones. I have watched Steve J's video on youtube several times. I think I have everything I need for the job now.
Should I put the new outer felt seals in dry?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 04:54 pm:

I just found in another discussion that the inner seals from Mac's "has too much contact with the axle and can be twisted apart". Mac's is what I have on order.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 05:05 pm:

Yes they go on dry. However I recommend going the extra $$ and also get the modern outer seal too. Just be sure you order the one for your year of car. The earlier axle tubes are a different diameter. These work nice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 05:53 pm:

No I'm thinking maybe I messed up again ordering the seals from Mac's. Then I found where Glen Chaffin said "Mac's copied our seal but copied the early design which had a thicker neoprene lip. It still works but takes more room." Suppose that means it is ok to use but will have to grind a little more off the inner end of the sleeve?
Glen Chaffin also said "If you have a good inner seal you don't need a neoprene outer seal. In fact the original felt is better. The inner seal is designed as a boot type seal that will flex and move with the axle if it goes off center. Lip type seals like the one used in the outer seal will not do this." Makes sense to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Tuesday, February 28, 2017 - 06:57 pm:

Tommy, I got my 1st T last spring. The one thing I have learned with ordering parts is ask here what or where to buy parts. These guys will tell you what works and where you get the best service. I wont name the supplier but I had headlight bulbs on back order for 3 months. Not the 1st time that sory of thing happened with them. Glad to see your making good progress. Just remember it is enjoyable,even when there are problems. I hate having to work on daily drivers but the old iron is different.
Drive safe and often


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 12:07 pm:

I have removed the bearing and sleeve on the passenger side and they look great too. I'm encouraged. Now to see what the internal parts look like.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 02:14 pm:

Just about anybody but Macs! For us "eastuhners", Langs, Snyders, Bob's Antique Auto great companies. I've even bought things from Chaffins. Like to spread the good will if you know what I mean.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 02:49 pm:

I guess I won't be buying anything else from Mac's. Now I'm stuck with $20.00 worth of parts I won't use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 03:51 pm:

I reordered a pair from Lang's. I usually buy from Lang's but ordered from Mac's because I had some PayPal credit I needed to use. Now I have 2 leather seals and the 2 Mac's that were a waste of money. Good thing I'm filthy rich, huh?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 07:19 pm:

Tommy, Langs will take pay pal. Just tell them when you order, and they will send you a invoice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Wednesday, March 01, 2017 - 11:11 pm:

[URL=http://s738.photobucket.com/user/thomc1957/media/0301172023_zpsujokmlmr.jpg.html][IMG]http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx24/thomc1957/0301172023_zpsujokmlmr.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
When I disassembled the passenger side I found that the hub had been rubbing the outer seal cap. I hope the cap was simply not on far enough. There is only .005-.006 end play in the axles. Could the passenger axle be "too deep" into the housing, or the differential and axles be offset toward the passenger side? Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, March 02, 2017 - 12:01 am:

Dallas, you don't have to name the supplier. We can all guess who it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Thursday, March 02, 2017 - 09:24 am:

Maybe add axle shims?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Thursday, March 02, 2017 - 09:52 am:

During reassembly, how do I measure to see that the axles are out far enough?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, March 02, 2017 - 12:49 pm:

Steve, "GUESS"? Somehow I doubt that it's a guess!
Let's just say that it's the second half of a famous Hamburger's name.
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, March 02, 2017 - 01:01 pm:

Tommy, I wish I knew of a measurement you could take to be sure that the axles stick out far enough, but I don't. Maybe Stan or one of the other folks who have done a bunch of rear axles can provide some guidance? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Thursday, March 02, 2017 - 01:11 pm:

Since the drivers side was not rubbing, I plan to measure how far the axle extends out of the housing on that side and compare it to the passengers side.
Like I said though, the cap might not have been on far enough. I'm hoping for the best case scenario.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Friday, March 03, 2017 - 08:26 am:

I got the inner seals from Mac's yesterday. I am returning them today. I will have wasted the shipping costs both ways but now I know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Thursday, March 09, 2017 - 08:13 am:

I now have the good inner seals and thrust washers from Lang's. I have "the" book ordered, but it has not arrived yet. Now all I need is a usable ring gear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, March 09, 2017 - 09:27 am:

Some have been showing up on Ebay, but as of yesterday I didn't see any that would pass muster (in my opinion).

It's worth being patient to find a good one, you sure don't want to have to open up the rear axle again because of a failed or howling set of gears.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 10:16 pm:

This topic might be getting old and boring, but I'm still working on getting this thing back together and have a couple more questions.
1-My rear has only one thrust washer pin on each side. Do I need to drill holes and install two more?
2-I have the original open type pinion spool. Do I need #2590 snap ring and where does it go?
I have the Glen Chaffin book, but am still unclear of these two items. Thank you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 10:31 pm:

Actually, another question. I read that the sleeves should be flush with the end of the axle housings but I see pics and videos, like Steve Jelf's, where there appears to be some sleeve sticking out past the housing. Do I need to grind the inner end of the sleeves so they are flush? Mine were sticking out possibly 1/16" with the old leather inner seals but I have the neoprene inners (from Lang's) to put back in. I'm trying to figure out how much to grind off. Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 05:58 am:

Tommy, here's an old thread discussing how to set up the old style pre 1920 caged pinion spool - is that what you have?
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/42098.html?1197332699

The differential halves only have one pin each for the thrust washers, while the axle halves has two each.

The most important question when putting the outer sleeves in place is if the protruding knobs seats fully in their holes. Then if the ends sticks out too much you should grind them, the wheel hub may not seat fully on the axle taper if it's tight there towards the felt cups. Worn hubs may need a shim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 08:09 am:

The hub had been rubbing on the outer seal retaining cup on the passenger side on mine . Maybe that's why?
I wish Chaffin's book had more pictures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 08:09 am:

Tommy,

What condition is your ring and pinion set up. I have a decent usable pair if you are interested. Not perfect but still good for many miles. $40 plus post

Email me if interested

Mosterman@eastman.org


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 10:13 am:

I know cost is an important consideration here, but I would skip the snap ring and associated parts and take the time to save up the dough for a Fun Projects pinion bearing. Most "upgrades" aren't, but this one really is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 06:34 pm:

What about #2587PB1 or #2587PB2 from Lang's?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 09:33 pm:

I now have the open spool and related parts. However I bought the spool and parts because they were not with my car when I bought it. My car is a '21 and now I'm wondering if I have the correct stuff for my car. I'm seeing the closed type listed as up thru 1921 and the open style as 1922 and later. How can I be sure which conversion I need, not knowing if the rearend is the original one to my car? Will they interchange? Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 02:18 am:

Tommy, if your car had the closed spool prior to your teardown, your back axle assembly will accept either type of spool. The difference is in the front mating surface on the diff halves.

The closed spool has a lip on the back end. This means the mating surface on the diff halves has to have been machined to allow this lip to go over the edge of the mating surface of the diff halves.

The open spool has no lip at the back. It is a flat surface. The mating face on the diff halves is flat, with just a beveled edge to clean it up. The closed spool will not go on such a diff., but the open spool will go on either style.

As far as I know, on our Canadian sourced cars most 21 models had the closed spool. My original 22 tourer had the open spool.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 09:26 am:

[URL=http://s738.photobucket.com/user/thomc1957/media/0313170907_zps1gkab77u.jpg.html][IMG]http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx24/thomc1957/0313170907_zps1gkab77u.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
Here is my spool in one half of my diff housing. It fits. So I need to order the conversion parts for the open style, correct? Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 03:32 am:

Tommy, that is indeed an open spool, bolted to the correct diff halves for an open spool.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 03:34 am:

Tommy, that is indeed an open spool, bolted to the correct diff halves for an open spool.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 - 11:21 am:

Anybody see or anybody sell the rearend parts on ebay last night that included a ring gear? I bought them. The ring gear looked very good in the close-up photos. Now I am ordering the Fun Projects pinion conversion so I can get this thing back together.


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