Magnafluxing drums and head

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Magnafluxing drums and head
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 02:08 pm:

I took the transmission drums and head from my "23 runabout project to get magnafluxed last week. The results were two cracked drums and a cracked head. Cost me $260 and now I also have to find some good parts as well. It's a setback I was hoping I could avoid, but I guess it's good to know what's going into the engine. The head was in otherwise great condition. Any skillful welders out there want a nice high head for $50?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Shirley on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 02:36 pm:

If you are checking drums out of a running engine, they need to be oily for this to work. Wash the drums in the solvent of your choice. After the drums are dry cover the gears and wear surfaces with several layers of good duct tape( IE, Gorilla) Then blast the rough cast surfaces. Let the drums sit overnight. If there is a crack, the oil that is in crack will be very evident the next day and the crack will stick out like a sore thumb.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 02:45 pm:

I don't have a blaster ... but I wonder if there is some powder that might work if dusted on the surface that would draw out the solvent. Or maybe adding a dye to the solvent and soak the drums ... wipe the surface clean and apply a white powder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 02:51 pm:

They make dye kits for finding cracks. Like most crack finding processes, it's messy business:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv210Wt32jA

You need to get the part good and clean for it to work properly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 04:21 pm:

It costs about $60 to buy all the components for spot check style Dye penetrant inspection. Plus you need a gallon of MEK or lacquer thinner for degreasing.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=dye+check+spot+check+dye+penetrant&_osacat= 0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.Xdye+penetrant.TRS0&_nkw= dye+penetrant&_sacat=0


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 04:30 pm:

Yup, dye check should be all you need for drums & heads. Cranks however should still get magnaflux. As for heads, if I can't see the crack on a nicely cleaned up head, it ain't cracked.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 05:34 pm:

Most cracks in the drums are in the web, many of them can be seen with just your eyes after cleaning.
Another way is to clean and dry, the oil from the cracks will leach out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Val Soupios on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 06:37 pm:

I just dip the drums in kerosene, shake them off and then watch them air dry. Since the crack absorbs more kerosene it will show up as a dark line when the surface kerosene dries.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Olson on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 06:48 pm:

Another great thread!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Olson on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 06:51 pm:



(Message edited by Springsrick on March 06, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 07:50 pm:

Great ideas .... thanks all! I'm thinking any solvent that evaporates quickly would work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan McEachern on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 11:50 pm:

My 1st step would be to find another shop to do your magnafluxing. That's about 30 minutes work max unless you took them the parts to them dripping in goo and caked in dirt, and even then that price is absurd.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, March 06, 2017 - 11:56 pm:

Wish I could ... seems to be the price around here. My next move is to buy some drums from someone who works on Ts all the time and may have a stock of previously tested drums. Can't afford to buy from someone who simply says ... "they look good"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lovejoy, So Cal on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 01:34 am:

the solvent works great. See if your local chapter has a guy near by with a stash of drums. Worth a try, that is what I found and he let me bring back any drum with a crack and try another. Took a while, but he sold them to me cheap, about 30 bucks a piece .Probably had to take apart around 7 transmissions before I had enough that I could use, Good luck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 07:26 am:

I have NDT work like this done on aircraft parts frequently. To have an equivalent number of similar sized aircraft parts magnetic particle inspected by an FAA repair station costs me $150 and I get an 8130-3 back with each part.

Sounds like your shop is ripping you off big time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J and M Machine Co Inc on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 08:17 am:

Royce:
I was going to say that too:
If it was just cost of magnaflux then cost is high.
If it is cleaning plus magnaflux then I would say that's more like it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 11:57 am:

The price quoted seems on par with what it would have cost us for a similar amount of testing when I was still working as a Boilermaker. The price is a "commercial" price that would be charged to a large corporation or large construction company. The main reason for a high price is the 10 million dollars worth of liability insurance that was required for any NDT company (non destructive testing)that we used. The need for that much insurance is, if for some reason a part fails in service and is traced back to improper testing causing the failure. It is not hard for a failure of parts at places I worked to cause way over the 10 million dollars worth of damage. For example, if a vane on a turbine was to fail, due to a crack being missed, it could take out the entire turbine, the entire turbine deck and all close by related, parts, as well as killing lots of people. The damage of a failed turbine can cause damage in the hundred million price range. Back in the late 1980s I worked on a boiler in Helena Ark., where the turbine lost a vane. The entire turbine exploded. The main shaft was 24 inches in diameter, and the rotor vanes were about 12 foot in diameter. All of that rotates at 1000s of RPMs The shaft and vanes were over 45 foot long. When it exploded, it took out the entire 4th floor turbine deck, went thru the wall of the turbine building thru structural steel columns made from 2foot I-Beams 3/4 inch thick. Traveled into the boiler house and took out one corner of the boiler that is 12 stories tall and caused the boiler to explode and finally the shaft and rotor landed in the parking lot destroying dozens of cars. No one was killed, but that little uh-oh cost 86 million in the 1980s. If the testing outfit you used was also a commercial NDT testing outfit, they just charged you commercial rates as they probably did not care if they did it anyway. As mentioned above. dye check is usually all that is needed for model T parts. (except the crankshaft). Just clean the parts good, soak in diesel, wipe clean with rags and solvent like laquer thinner, when dry, just dust with flour. The only real difference between my method and the "dye check kits" is their (dye) or diesel has red dye in it, their (cleaner) or laquer thinner is in a spray can, and their (developer) or flour is in a spray can.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 12:33 pm:

Donnie,

How about talcum instead of flour?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison - Rice, Minnesota on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 03:17 pm:

Improper testing doesn't cause a failure. That's why it's called nondestructive testing. Material failure is usually the fault of previous processes such as heat treat. Sorry Donnie, I just couldn't resist. :-) But you're right on the money. The higher the costs associated with liability the higher the cost of test.

Dye penetrant works quite well as long as a person respects the importance of cleanliness. There's arguments against grit blasting product to be tested. There's a possibility that aggressive blasting media might peen a surface inclusion and "hide" it. Magnetic particle inspection with wet suspension is best for shafts. It takes less than 5 minutes for a competent operator to inspect a crankshaft on a magnetic particle inspection (magnaflux) machine.

There are other NDT methods such as Eddie current, x-ray, etc that can break the bank if used. But a good automotive machine shop will have access to a wet suspension magnetic particle inspection machine.

Another type of magnetic particle inspection involves electric prods and dry magnetic particles. It works very well for large castings and is cleaner than dye penetrant however the cost of the equipment for dry magnetic particle inspection is prohibitive and the prods create a risk for creating "hot spots" (hard spots from the heat of the prods) in the casting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 03:22 pm:

Got the drums back today ... remember the original post? :-)


The slow speed drum is toast ... the web is cracked as you can see in the picture.

slow

The reverse drum has some very tiny cracks from the rivets towards the center. You can't see them in this picture. The red marker was made by the person who did the test. Would this be too risky to use?

reverse


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 03:23 pm:

Got the drums back today ... remember the original post? :-)


The slow speed drum is toast ... the web is cracked as you can see in the picture.



The reverse drum has some very tiny cracks from the rivets towards the center. You can't see them in this picture. The red marker was made by the person who did the test. Would this be too risky to use?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 03:43 pm:

Mark,

The reverse drum should be fine. Those tiny cracks you speak of were probably there from new.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 03:56 pm:

I was thinking that, but hearing someone else say it makes my day. Now ... does any kind soul out there have a good .. tested ... slow speed drum they can spare?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J and M Machine Co Inc on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 07:11 pm:

Mark: If the reverse has multiple cracks in the rivet holes I wouldn't use it. I'd find a better one.
The above pictures show what cracks look like when magnafluxing.
Most likely caused when they used reverse to supplement the brake.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 08:14 pm:

Jerry, Talc would work just as well. Since the kids grew up I may not have any talc, but the wife always has some flour. Any kind of dry powder is OK. All it does is highlight the oily diesel wicking back out of the crack. OK Mike you got me. Poor choice of words. Improper testing does not cause a failure . But improper testing can "lead" to a failure due to not finding a "fault" that can fail. :-) :-) is that better.... I really miss working as a Boilermaker (at times) because I could take anything I needed tested to work with me and get it tested for nothing. I had access to almost every kind of test known to man. Now all I have is a can of diesel, some laquer thinner, and a bag of flour ... :-) :-) have fun and be safe ... Donnie Brown ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 08:46 pm:

I also have access to UVA and UVB blacklights at work. So could use a fluorescent dye. But actually I like the diesel fuel and powder test. I could easily use a dusting box as used in photo gravure work. It's nothing more than a cardboard box with a few ounces of whatever powder you want. You close the box and shake it. Then slide the part in through a hole in the side of the box ... and a fine even layer of the dust falls upon the object.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison - Rice, Minnesota on Tuesday, March 07, 2017 - 09:57 pm:

I apologize Donnie, I just couldn't resist.

In a past life I was certified in mag particle and dye pen testing in 1978. Then worked with it for the next 12 years. Most of it was hi pressure (10000 PSI) hydraulic pump, ram, valve and other testing for The Owatonna Tool Company.

I became involved with product failure analysis, weld testing for certification, incoming material inspection and worked with the High Priest of Metallurgy performing micro analysis and other black magic processes. We were responsible for determining raw material and heat treat conformance to specification as well as other forms of process failure evaluation.

One of my favorite exercises in fertility was performing different types of NDT when requested. And then spending several hours writing reports and trying to convince some supplier, purchasing agent or process operator that their product was junk. "They couldn't see or feel any cracks, or sulfide stringers or other inclusions".

It all made retirement so sweet when it finally happened. I've spent countless hours running barefoot through fields of flowers while laughing hysterically and pulling out large pieces of my scalp to chew on. I'm content here on the farm.


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