Conditioning old paint

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Conditioning old paint
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 09:15 am:

Awhile ago someone posted a product they rubbed onto original paint and wiped it off to consolidate a worn finish. What is that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 09:21 am:

BOILED Linseed oil and mineral spirits. There is a product available at Home Depot that is the same thing if you read the ingredients, but it costs more.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 10:07 am:

No, this was a commercial solvent of some type. It left the finish a sheen rather than high polish.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan McEachern on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 10:24 am:

Pretty sure you are referring to Penetrol.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 10:45 am:

Penetrol is what I was referring to also. Thank You Dan for remembering the name.

Mark, you can buy that at Lowe's or Home Depot, but as I mentioned, you can make your own cheaper. I have a small quart can I made up with plenty of BOL and mineral spirits left over.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 10:47 am:

It was Don Allen - Penetrol:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/708324/732050.html?1488671448

I've used denatured alcohol to revive Gilsonite paint on my 1917 roadster.

See my posts dated January 12 in this thread:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/708324/712534.html?1486431340


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 12:36 pm:

So is Penetrol boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 12:49 pm:

From personal experience: if you wipe original Model T Ford baked or unbaked factory gilsonite paint with mineral spirits/paint thinner, it will only remove the dirt, grease and wax that is on top of the paint. It does not affect the paint itself (it will not dissolve or harm the paint). It will not rejuvenate the paint, only clean the surface.

Penetrol is naphtha and ethylbenzene:

https://buyat.ppg.com/EHSDocumentManagerPublic/documentSearchInnerFrame.aspx?Sea rchAllPublicFolders=True&CodeCondition=IsEqualTo&CodeValue=00405357&Form=53bd5d1 5b2c796a10000&Language=en-US

Penetrol is paint thinner/conditioner. You add it to paint so it flows on easier and dries slower.

https://www.flood.com/products/paint-additives/penetrol-oil-based-paint-additive

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Flood-Penetrol-1-Qt-Clear-Paint-Additive-FLD4-04/1001 30893

There is another product called Floetrol which is used for Latex paint.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert L. Rogers on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 01:01 pm:

Adding some "Japan Drier" to the linseed oil speeds up drying time. Also available at Home Depot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Allen - Conroe, TX on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 01:12 pm:

As Erik stated above, I've been using Penetrol with excellent results.

I think the key has been that I wipe it on in limited amounts and immediately wipe it all off...dry....with another (clean) cotton rag.

I wouldn't be comfortable leaving any solvent on that old paint for very long.

Go to the link in Erik's posting and check out the treated/untreated shot of my car's body vs splash apron.

The result is exactly what I was looking for. The old paint really comes to life. It's been a few weeks since I treated the first panels and they still look great and aren't turning into dust magnets.

FWIW...as a chemist...linseed oil makes me nervous. If you use that stuff, make sure you put your used rags in a pail of water afterward. I've run experiments on linseed soaked rags and the wive's tales are true....they will burst into flames. It oxidizes readily and creates an exothermic reaction.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 02:11 pm:

As I stated earlier, I have used denatured alcohol, which does soften and clean gilsonite paint, especially if it is not baked like on the body. (It will actually dissolve right through the unbaked paint if you leave on long enough.) You are basically removing a small amount of paint and scuzz on the surface. The net result is it puts some "life" back into the paint and makes it look more vibrant, at least in my experience.

I have a feeling that the naphtha in Penetrol does the same thing as denatured alcohol - maybe even better. I like cleaning, detailing and conserving old stuff so I'll pick up some Penetrol and try it myself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 03:35 pm:

I am going to try; remove dirt and grim, gently wire wheel loose surface rust then coat a section at a time on my survivor 48 F2 with Johnson Paste Wax. There is a story in the current Restorer (Model A)Mag that talks about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 06:42 pm:

Don: Boiled linseed oil makes you nervous yet the ethylbenzene in Penetrol doesn't? If you read the saftey data sheet it is quite similar in dealing with BLO---snippet from Penetrol safety data sheet:

Vapors may accumulate in low or confined areas or travel a considerable distance to a
source of ignition and flash back. Vapors are heavier than air and may spread along
floors.

Materials such as cleaning rags, paper wipes and protective clothing, which are
contaminated with the product may spontaneously self-ignite some hours later. To avoid
the risks of fires, all contaminated materials should be stored in purpose-built containers
or in metal containers with tight-fitting, self-closing lids. Contaminated materials should
be removed from the workplace at the end of each working day and be stored outside.

If this material is part of a multiple component system, read the Safety Data Sheet(s) for
the other component or components before blending as the resulting mixture may have
the hazards of all of its parts



For anyone still reading this, I have no stake in either product and the choice is yours. To me having the BOL is a little more enviro friendly, and I have had zero issues as with some that report mold issues using it. Again, it may not work for everyone. As I also stated by quantity it is far cheaper. Both protect virtually the same, which isn't a whole lot in comparison with paint.

Use what works for you, but I personally think that either product will get you the same results and that cleanup should not be taken lightly with either product(s).

(Message edited by Chad_Marchees on March 10, 2017)

(Message edited by Chad_Marchees on March 10, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 07:46 pm:

Choice: you can use common sense, or you can be afraid . . . be very afraid !! ;- )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Allen - Conroe, TX on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 09:40 pm:

Chad...a few points:

- It's $9.58 for the whole can of Penetrol and I'll end up only using about a third of the can. So I'll treat the whole car for around $3.50. Any cheaper than that and they'll have to give me the stuff.

- If the Penetrol was 100% ethylbenzene, then yes, it would bother me. It's not though....not even close. It's .1% ethylbenzene. You read that right....one tenth of one percent.

- The rate of oxidation for pure linseed oil is much more rapid than than that of Penetrol....they're not even in the same league. I've actually tried to get a bucket with Penetrol soaked rags in it to combust and can't. That's not to say that it won't, but I can't get it to. And conversely, if you just want some free entertainment, throw some linseed oil soaked rags in a bucket (do it outside, away from a structure) and wait for a while. It'll go up every time. It's impressive...in a scary sort of way.

- Finally, I do work in the petroleum industry, but not for anyone associated with Penetrol. I'm not the first to use it on old paint and honestly don't care who does or doesn't use it. What's cool is that it comes ready to use (no mixing needed), it's dirt cheap, has very low odor and works VERY well at what I wanted it to do.

Happy crappy-old-paint treating!

(Message edited by rustyfords on March 10, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Rodell, Sr.- Wisconsin on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 11:04 pm:

I like the results that I got using Gibbs Oil on my old original 1922 coupe. I applied it with a rag right over the paint and the bare metal, and then later wiped it down with a clean rag to remove any excess that remained on the surface. It "livened up" the original paint and cleaned and protected the spots that had paint loss. It claims that it can be painted over, also. Look at www.getgibbs.com for more information and its many uses.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Allen - Conroe, TX on Friday, March 10, 2017 - 11:10 pm:

That looks really good Jim.

Would love to see some more photos of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 04:30 am:

I'm just a bit sceptical about the claims that the Gibbs website has. If it is as good as they say and can do everything that they say and has been around since 1969, why isn't everyone beating down their door? Not meaning any disrespect to Jim by any means. He has had good luck with it, but all of the other claims seem to me to be a bit of a "snake oil" approach. I haven't tried it, and have no experience with it, and have never heard of it until now, but it just seems to me to be one of those things that are just too good to be true. I hope someone can prove me wrong. JMHO Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 07:27 am:

Good points too Don. Not trying to argue, I guess rereading it may come out that way though. I think there has been good info posted here overall.

I think the next question in place for anyone is what last the longest per application. I have tried the BLO/mineral spirits and ATF oil on things. So far the BLO combo holds up better.

I did try some Fluid Film on the plow of the doodle bug, but I just sprayed it on and didn't wipe it down. That seemed to last pretty good, but because it is kind of waxy, it does attract air born particles / objects. And even though I would say it is the winner so far, I didn't do a fair comparison as I didn't wipe it down.

I think I my try the Penetrol this year too to see. Maybe give the Gibbs a shot too. My T 'bug stays outside so I have a great scenario for testing. I would like to get it down to one application per year if possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Allen - Conroe, TX on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 07:51 am:

Your two T's are awesome Chad.

The finish on your cutoff Touring looks like an old leather jacket....just perfect.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 09:43 am:

I have been treating the cut off to the ATF wiped down on a rag and buffed out--That is a really old pic in my profile, probably 10 years ago. There is some original paint on the sides, I can't say for sure what else may be original--the fenders/splash shields/ running boards were brush painted long ago before I got it. But it stays inside so it stays nice with the rubbed down ATF.

I'll have to see if I can get some updated pics.

Jim's coupe above looks stunning. I really like the way it looks with it's sheen.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gary hammond-Forest, Va on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 07:03 am:

Try Pledge, spray on and wipe till you get the sheen you want.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Jefferson, Ohio on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 09:34 am:

I have tried very hard not to comment on the thread title but I just can't keep doing it.

"Conditioning Old Paint"

I condition Old Paint twice a day by exercising him in the paddock and giving him a good rub down. He gets an extra flake of hay and a little extra grain. He should be well conditioned in time for the spring trail ride season.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 09:35 am:

This may sound crazy (I have been called worse) but I use WD-40 to protect the old paint finish on my T.
One of the services tested a large number of things - some very expensive - to protect aircraft while being stored in humid environments and found that WD40 beat them all.
In my opinion it is fluid enough to soak into the rusty areas and leaves a waxy residue that stops the rust from continuing.

The other possibility is MMO because it is a mystery!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 11:51 am:

But Dennis, what about Old Dan ?? ;- )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 01:56 pm:

I have read through this thread with interest and puzzlement as to why no one has mentioned using rubbing compound to remove oxidation and expose the underlying good paint. Instead of temporarily covering the problem with a blend of solvents, eliminate it. You can turn an old, dull, oxidized finish into a bright shiny new finish with McGuiar's rubbing compound and some elbow grease. After you have attained a deep mirror-like finish, apply a coat of McGuiar's paste wax to keep it shiney and looking new for many years. The paint job on my '26 coupe was applied in 1995. I think we can all agree that 22 years can be considered old paint and has been kept vibrant and bright with the above method applied every decade or so. These results could never be had nor could the coating be maintained for so many years by simply coating the dull paint with a mixture of solvents. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 03:10 pm:

What about the frequent eruptions of rust on the body and fenders? These are generally no bigger than your little finger nail but they are all over. Have people gone over them with wet and dry and a block to bring them back to the same surface as the paint and then gone over the whole with the various linseed oil and mineral spirit elixirs? Or do you apply rust reformer to those spots first?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 04:50 pm:

Jim Patrick:

Tired original factory gilsonite paint cannot be shined/polished with rubbing compound. It's a completely different animal than the enamel or lacquer paint that is on your coupe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 11:04 pm:

Thanks Erik, but I must disagree. I also collect Edison cylinder phonographs on which the cast iron bedplates were painted in the late 19th, early 20th century with black gilsonite and they polish up beautifully to a glossy, mirror-like finish using rubbing compound. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 12:04 am:

I grew up around antiques and antique cars. My dad is very talented at cleaning and conserving and a lot of that has rubbed off on me.

I've done my fair share of "Simonizing" paint on antique objects. Trust me - the tired paint on a black era Model T Ford will not polish up to a high gloss like the bedplates of your Edison machines, a Victrola tonearm bracket, a Singer Sewing Machine head, antique fans and other similarly gilsonite painted items.

Black Ford bodies had a blue black primer coat followed by two color varnish coats and a finishing final coat. It just does not behave/react the same to polishing compound compared to the one or two coats of paint over bare metal that was applied to your Edison phono parts.

1

2

3


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 11:39 am:

Edison parts were dipped in black Japan several times, and then color varnish. (Clear with a tint ) . It was surely not "Gilsonite".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 12:24 pm:

What has become to be known as Japan black and used on a variety of mass produced metal objects from at least the late 1800s through at least the mid 1900s has an asphalt base.

There were probably a variety of formulations involving different solvents and other ingredients.

Asphalt and bitumen are synonymous terms. Gilsonite is a trademarked name and particular type of naturally occurring asphalt or bitumen. The black paint used on Model T Fords has an asphalt base. Gilsonite is often mentioned as the base.

You'll note that your antiques that were originally painted with Japan black may be nice and shiny, but the paint lacks depth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 01:17 pm:

Once again, here is a link to a member who attempted to duplicate the original Ford paint:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/487227.html?1413843123


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Allen - Conroe, TX on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 05:51 pm:

Funny....one of my current customers is American Gilsonite.

I was just in their lab in Houston the other day looking at a chunk of Gilsonite.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 06:15 pm:

Interesting, Don :-)
Looks like it's still used as a component in paint among other uses: http://www.americangilsonite.com/index.php?id=6


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Allen - Conroe, TX on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 06:24 pm:

Yes, I seem to recall their head chemist telling that.

Their Houston lab is gorgeous by the way...but I digress


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Koke Twigg-Smith on Wednesday, March 15, 2017 - 06:24 pm:

A day late and a penny short, but a home my father had built burned to the ground after the floor finishers left a pile of linseed piled rags in the last room they did. Spontaneous ignition. Put the rags well outside in a water filled metal bucket!😩


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