Spindle cross threading anxiety.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Spindle cross threading anxiety.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 01:34 pm:

Hi, I am putting the front wheel back on the spindle. The bearings get to slightly farther than the position shown and then resists a lot more. I do not know why it is resisting more. I am anxious about damaging this at this point by using increased force. Any advice?

Spindle bearing resistance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 01:39 pm:

Do you have them mixed up side to side?

The driver's side spindle and bearing use RH threads and the passenger side spindle and bearing use LH threads.

If you have them on the correct sides, then remove the bearing and wheel and check the threads on the spindle. Clean the threads up as needed with a thread chaser or thread file. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Dugger on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 01:49 pm:

Ignacio: Was this bearing on this spindle before? If yes then it should go on with out any problems. There could be a bit of slight damage when you pulled the wheel before.
I would remove the bearing and wheel and try turning the bearing on the spindle without the wheel and see how it works and do it by HAND, no wrench of forcing it on there.
MY thoughts and hope it works. Good Luck
bill in Californa


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 02:29 pm:

I have had that problem more than once with bearings that were not ever on that particular spindle. I don't know the cause but after working it back and forth many times I persuaded it on. Threads can develop their own attitude after many years.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 02:37 pm:

There may be some damage to the spindle threads in the cotter pin area. Clean the grease off and use a thread file to straighten things up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 03:31 pm:

After observation and thinking about it here is what I've got:

I am reusing the roller bearings that came with the car. One outer bearing is threaded, the other is not. I do not know which one was on which side originally. I switched the threaded from the drivers to the passengers side and it went on without any problem tightening in the counter clockwise direction. One washer probably the non-threaded bearing side had the tang worn off, the other not.

See photo for what the problem threaded side looks like. The threads don't look straight inside the cup. I will try the thread file. How do you use a thread file?

Both spindle sides tighten in the counter-clockwise direction. Is that the way it should be?

Now for another problem. I was gifted some clearly new Timkin inner roller bearings or unknown origin. The diameters are fine. They are installed now. The oil keeper seems to stick out more than the originals. The oil keepers are wider than they should be? Should it be flush with the hub? Is that a problem? See photo. To get these back out is a problem. I have the original inner bearings that were/are(?) good but I used the tiny bit of MIG weld trick to loosen the oil keepers which worked. Does that mean I cannot reuse them?

Spindle threads.
Inner bearing oil keeper.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 03:56 pm:

Only the RH side spindle should have counter clockwise or LH thread outer bearing. The LH side spindle should have an ordinary RH thread outer bearing.
There is a risk running a RH spindle on the LH side, the bearing will come loose some day and lock the wheel or crack the hub, but that has been taken care of by using an unthreaded outer bearing from a Model A or newer car.
Using an unthreaded bearing will wear the threads - maybe that's why you can't get the threaded bearing on that spindle.

Again, Don't put the LH threaded bearing on the LH spindle.
The best solution is to change the spindle to a correct RH threaded LH spindle and get the correct bearing for it, but you may get by with the unthreaded bearing until you can find the right parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 05:04 pm:

The spindle threads on the one side are messed up because the prior owner ran an outer bearing without threads on them. He probably had to because you probably have the wrong spindle on that side, so a threaded bearing would tighten itself up during driving and sieze up.

As you suspected, the inner bearing and dust seal aren't on far enough. Is the inner bearing race pressed in all the way to the shoulder in the hub? Does the inner bearing fit the race correctly?

pic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gary hammond-Forest, Va on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 06:26 pm:

A lot of T's had Model A bearings substituted, the same race and an unthreaded bearing hub. The same bearing lacking the threads. I'm running them on my truck since I reversed the spindles to use a Mustang II rack. A low speed unstressed front end on good roads should not have any issues IMHO....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 07:27 pm:

There you have it Ignatio. The A model wheel bearing without the threads will flatten the tops of the threads on the spindle and very shortly that bearing will not be a good fit on the spindle. If you are using the same two bearings, then the non threaded A model bearing needs to go back on the same spindle {not something I would recommend}.
If you are trying to fit a correct bearing over those damaged threads, then you will have problems.

The best way to fix the tight threads is to remove the wheel and run the nut all the way on the threads. The nuts are hard and they will reform the thread for you. You might have to run it up a few times to free it up. Once that is done, the wheel can be replaced and the correct bearing threaded on.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 07:29 pm:

I think that a passenger side Spindle has been substituted for a driver side. I will be getting the correct parts. Am really enjoying my purchase of the special spindle removal tool right now. Thanks for the excellent insight and wisdom.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 07:58 pm:

Ignacio, what spindle removal tool are you referring to?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 09:58 pm:

Spindle bushing removal tool. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Saturday, March 11, 2017 - 10:09 pm:

One of the first mistakes a new T owner makes is assuming the right spindle is RH threaded. I did when I started working on my newly bought T in 1970 and almost broke the nut in trying to remove it using the traditional righty tighty, lefty loosy rule, I was taught by my Dad. Thank goodness my Dad, a natural mechanic, who, owned a Model A in his youth, came out, saw me with my foot on the wrench getting ready to stand on it and stopped me. When he took a close look at the threads, he deduced the problem and, to my amazement, easily removed the nut using the new righty loosy rule. I learned a valuable lesson that day... When working on a T, never assume anything. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 03:35 am:

Ignacio, A quick way to tell which side of the Model T a particular spindle if for, is that the machined groove for the spindle washer goes to the rear of the car. It is possible to have the spindle arm on backwards but the machined groove will give that problem away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 08:34 am:

Iganacio,

Concerning the bearing cup (what you are referring to a oil keeper i believe) do you have it in backwards? It appears to me like you tried to install the bearing then tried to hammer the cup on to hold it in. Hopefully I am wrong here. The cup gets hammered into the wheel first (tapered side facing out) then the bearing goes in followed by the outer seal.

Look at marks picture posted above. Again, hopefully I am wrong in what I am seeing here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Frost on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 08:36 am:

On changing spindle bushings. I'm no expert, but couldn't you drill one side out enough to insert a piece of round stock to knock out the other side? Say, about 3/4" and once it's removed, flip it over to get the other side. Hate to spend money on tools if a homemade option is available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 08:58 am:

Also concerning the spindles, If you have ones that are swapped side to side on the car, hopefully that doesn't mean the axle and consequently the spring perches aren't reversed also. If the spring perches get reversed, you will not have adequate caster for the car to drive straight and not be all sketchy going down the road.

My pic below shows the notch (or boss) that must face the rear of the vehicle. In this case, the pic posted would be the drivers side, as looking at the front of the car.



(Message edited by Chad_Marchees on March 12, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 07:36 pm:

Ignatio, referring to your photo of the inner bearings and the dust seal. That bearing does not look like it should. I wonder if it is the correct bearing. A T bearing has a step on the outside of the bearing where the dust seal runs. Your bearing looks to have the inner race and the roller cage on the same plane, rather than the inner race having a step. That will stop the dust seal from being driven home.

A standard dust seal will easily be driven out by driving the bearing out. The bearing will push the seal out as it comes out.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 09:15 pm:

Dave, to remove the spindle bushings you can tap the bushing, can't remember what size, screw in a bolt then use something like a piece of 1/2" rod to knock them out. The hole in the bushing is 1/2" so maybe a 9/16" tap. That's what I did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Frost on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 09:25 pm:

Great Idea Corey. Thank you, Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alan George Long on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 09:04 am:

Looks to me like the inner bearing is fitted back to front?
Alan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 10:02 am:

Alan, I think you might be right!

Ignacio, refer to the cross section picture I posted yesterday at 5:04 for the correct orientation of the bearings. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 05:49 pm:

Alan, to do that the two pieces of the bearing would have to be fitted as a unit. Who'd have thunk it!!!!

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 12:50 am:

It the bearings are fitted right, I think these are just the wrong oil keepers. I will eject them soon and compare with the old ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 12:50 am:

Another problem is that Lang's is back-ordered on Used drivers side spindles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 02:30 am:

I have lots of used spindles for sale cheap!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 09:32 pm:

Scored a set of good spindles from Space City T's club member Clint Allred.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Saturday, March 18, 2017 - 11:09 pm:

The driver's spindle is changed out for the correct right hand thread, correct threaded outer bearings replaced the 'new' wrong inner bearings with the originals which where good. Soldier back on its feet at least in the front.

On its feet.


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