Looking for information on Canadian Cars

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Looking for information on Canadian Cars
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Sunday, March 12, 2017 - 10:54 pm:

Just bought a '15 Canadian Touring car and looking for as much information as possible on it. Differences from USA models, paint colors and any reference materials/books that I could use as I work on this. Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 09:31 am:

There was a MTFCI annual meeting held in Hamilton, Ontario about 20 years ago.

There was a guy there selling the last copies he had of a nice book that he had published on Canadian cars.

I have regretted every since that I did not buy a copy, but now I do not remember his name or the book title.

Perhaps it was never republished, because too many people disagreed with the contents.

I would still like to buy a copy anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 10:10 am:

Would it be this book?

https://www.amazon.ca/Shadow-Detroit-Gordon-McGregor-Motoropolis/dp/0814332846


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 10:39 am:

Brian
I can share a couple of pictures of a unrestored Canadian '17 interior. The seats are definitely leather and in a diamond pattern.
According to the Canadian parts book, tops were offered in both black and "kahki " (which I understand to be a tan colour), (and yes that is the correct spelling for colour in Canada)!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 11:22 am:

There were a variety of differences with in the year model. Some early models still had the gas lamps from '14, some had the forked head light mounts and some the pedestal type. Some early models had the bulb horn, some had no horn, some had hand operated Klaxons. There were about 4 different body manufacturers and there may be some minor differences in body parts. Some early models were fitted with the straight '14 fenders. Some of the early kerosene side lights were left and right with the door opening with a vertical hinge they were E&J #30. The later models were non handed and had vent holes in the chimneys, the faunts could be attached with the adjusting wheel inboard or outboard. Tires were 30 x 3 1/2, most all the parts have MADE IN CANADA stamped or cast including the radiator. Except for the driver's door, 30 x 3 1/2" tires and the radiator (made in Canada) there are very few outward appearance differences. Hogsheads were aluminum, pedals may have been ribbed or smooth not sure. I believe the top material was different I think the US models were ribbed and the Canadian models smooth. Top saddles were different Canadian models had the left and right hand clasp type, whereas the US models used the non handed half round with a leather strap. Some models came with no saddles and they were purchases as extras. I also have a 27 and it will accept the US strap style or the Canadian clasp type. Also the Canadian cars used #2 Robertson head screws (square socket). I am unsure if there are any differences in the top bow wood. On the later models the top bow wood was made up of 5 pieces, the steam bent ends were two 1/2" pieces bent and glued attached to the single cross member with a metal clasp screwed with Robertson screws. I am unsure of the transition from one solid piece to the multiple pieces.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 01:58 pm:

James, based on Don Lang recommendation I did order a book, might be the same one you mention.

https://www.amazon.com/Ford-Years-Canada-Alan-McPhee/dp/B0070Z9IVU/ref=sr_1_2?s= books&ie=UTF8&qid=1489427596&sr=1-2&keywords=ford+in+canada+100+years

David, it is interesting that you mention the Robertson screws. I found quite a few of them in the wood of the body and thought they were out of place.

I will add a few pictures shortly


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 03:06 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 03:16 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 03:17 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 03:18 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 04:00 pm:

James & Dave,

I think it might be this book pictured below.

Best regards, John Page Australia



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 08:12 pm:

I have this book. I guess this is the one James refers to. It was published by "Syam publishing" in Montreal.



(Message edited by 404_not_found on March 13, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 09:20 pm:

Dave, I believe that is the one I wanted to find.

Thank you!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 09:50 pm:

James,

I don't think the book "Ford of Canada 100 years together" is the one you saw about 20 years ago. It was published in 2003 about 14 years ago. I've shared with you about the "Faces of Ford -- the Windsor Years" and at that time you didn't think that was it either. But it was copyrighted 1993 and used many photos from Ford of Canada. So it fits better in the about 20 years ago time frame. The copy John Page posted above has a blue cover with photos on it. The copy I have is just a green cover with gold lettering. Hopefully one of these days we will find the book you saw or confirm it is one of the ones above.

Brain,

Congratulations on your "new" 1915 Canadian Ford. Please take more photos and post and/or send them (you can click on my name and it brings up my profile and my e-mail address is the 3rd line down.)

To my knowledge, there is not a single nice place to find detailed information about any of the Canadian 1904-1927 Fords.

But there are several sources that can be a help to you or anyone with a Canadian produced Ford. Three of those are mentioned above. I've read the Model T parts in those three books above. And the book "In The Shadow of Detroit" is available online at: https://books.google.com/books?id=THOyZ5JwkEQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=In+the+shadow+of+detroit&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjP84PJ5tTSAhWEgCYKHeF5CGkQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=In%20the%20shadow%20of%20detroit&f=false That one is great about the Canadian founder and Ford of Canada, but not many details about the cars. The others are also not that helpful on individual details about the cars. But they do have some information. But none of them provide the excellent year to year coverage that is available for the USA produced cars in Bruce McCalley's book "Model T Ford" (available as a reprint and also as a 2 CD set) or Martin Riley, Burce Lilleker, Neil Tuckett's coverage of the English Model Ts in their book "The English Model T Ford." But the amount of information on the Canadian cars is more limited but has been increasing over the past 10 years. The Model T Ford Club International Judging Guidelines recently added information about the Canadian Ts for the first time in their 7th edition. They have approximately 2 full pages as a Canadian Supplement for the 1915 year as well as a supplement for all the other years also. That is available from the MTFCI as well as the vendors see: They are available at: http://modeltfordclubinternationalinc.mysimplestore.com/products/judging-guideli nes-7th-edition as well as some of the vendors. If you order from the vendors etc. be sure to ask for the 7th Edition as the 6th Edition does not have those Canadian Supplements.

If you or anyone else would like a free copy of Bill Mowle’s article “Only in Canada…eh?” send me your e-mail address and I’ll forward a copy to you. The club allows us to do that to promote the club and our hobby. The article is a scan from the Vintage Ford magazine covering the 1920 Canadian Ts. Many of those same items would apply to your 1915 (“DISCLAIMER: from memory” – not as reliable as notes and references, I believe the 1915 would also have . 2 gas cap holes in the wooden cover over the gas tank. Depending on if the chassis was right hand drive or left hand drive the tank was mounted so the filler was always on the passenger side.)

Note the engine number and the number on the ID patent plate for a 1915 Canadian car will match (that isn’t the case of USA cars. Also into the 1920s the Canadian cars ID patent plate still had the engine serial number).



Posting of interest:
http://www.jandm-machine.com/projects/canadian/projectsCanadianModelT.html 1915 Canadian engine rebuild – has Made in USA ground off on the engine block.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/17112.html like the 1915 USA cars your car would have a push pull light switch.

Postings not as interesting – but still 1915 Canadian related:

Radiator http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/43222.html?1198377824

Horn – 1915 Canadian price list of parts and other items indicate only a bulb horn was used – see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/17189.html electric horn introduced for 1916 models

I think the Robertson screws were used in 1915 also – see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/9515.html If someone would confirm that or correct that one.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/9515.html differences Canadian and USA

Below are the serial numbers for the Canadian cars – thank you to Steven Miller for making these available:







Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 10:58 pm:

Hap, Thanks for all of the information, I certainly have a lot to read through, although the more I read the more questions I have. I order the judging guidelines so I think that will help some. A few other questions:

1. The information states the '15 Canadian car is blue. I think I have read it was Midnight Blue. Any thoughts of pictures that show what it looks like? Also is the frame also painted the blue?
2. The steering column has a square bracket where it bolts to the firewall. My '19 is round and a friends '15 is also round. Is the square mount from another year and is not correct for this car? As a note it also has the 1/2 tube under the column for wiring.
3. should there be locations other than on the engine with a serial number stamped in?

Thanks again, your posts have always been interesting and very helpful.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Monday, March 13, 2017 - 11:24 pm:

skip the question on the steering column, figured that out, looks like a square mount is a 26/27.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 06:21 am:

Brian, I did a ground up restoration of a 1915 Canadian Touring car. the Robertson screws were used in many locations throughout the body. In addition, in later cars they turned up holding the steering wheel rim to the spider. They were also used in securing the dash in the improved cars, these being nickel plated brass metal threads.

Robertson screws are indeed a Canadian product, recently revived. The square drive is far more positive than Phillips heads. I believe Henry would not use them because he did not want to pay royalties for same.

If your car had/has a magneto horn, the steering column will have a small tube, capable of carrying a single wire, fixed under the column. There will be a couple of holes at the top of the column for the horn button switch.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 07:23 am:

Brian,

Yes, Midnight Blue is the color listed for the Canadian 1915 body color.

The Canadian supplement does not say what the chassis color was. Another area that we need additional research and help documenting.

The engine serial number will also be located on the ID patent plate that will be on the dash of the car. Bellow is Allen's 1915 ID dash tag (Thank you Allen). (note the corner of the patent plate would originally been behind the body metal as it was attached to the dash and then the body was installed. So the top left corner was covered by the cowl metal. You can see where it had been there at one time.



Below is a photo of a reproduction Patent Plate that is discussed in Darren's posting at:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/25455.html?1172628962




The wood in your body looks very good. I don't know if it was rewooded sometime in the past or just stored in dry areas most of its life. "IF" it is the original wood in front of the gas tank, there is a possibility you will find a body maker's letter and number stamped into the wood seat frame in front of the gas tank. Below is a Fisher body number stamped into the wood of a 1914 body (thank you David Chantrell for sending that to me):



For additional photos of where to look - please see the information on the USA body numbers at the Forum posting “Home for the Holidays” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html

There is lots more about the Canadian Ts we still need to learn and document. An item you would want to check is does your body have a half moon cut out on the top front of metal part of the cowl? See the posting "Smoking Gun" 15' and 16' or is it....?
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/13259.html

Again congratulations on your new Ford.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Mavins Winnipeg,Canada on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 09:54 am:

I have found that there is more wood in the back of the body,their is a made in Canada on the windshield, the brass brass plate on the coil box switch said Canada on it,and most of the originals have no black paint on them. all leather diamond seats and the rad does not have made in the USA, it will just say Ford. The block is either just ford or ford Canada and of course the serial starts with a letter. Cheers Colin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Tuesday, March 14, 2017 - 11:03 am:

Some observations:
The engine has a 26-27 coil box 15 coil box is inside of the wood firewall.
The front spring should have tapered leaves (rear also)
The light rims should be brass (driver's side head lamp is typical 1916)
Top bow saddles are US style, Canadian style are clasp style they will fit on the same irons that are attached to the body. They may be hard to find, I searched for several years before I found a pair, they are left and right as opposed to the US non-handed saddle and strap type.
Early mid and late front fenders have a different numbers of rivets firstly 4 rivets later 3 rivets and much later 2 rivets. The 2 rivet models may carry into 1916. Again there were at least 4 different makers so fits may vary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Thursday, March 16, 2017 - 10:44 pm:

Sorry for the delay, we got 30+ inches of snow Tuesday so been tied up.

David, can you post a picture of your bow saddles so I can start a search for those?

Hap, there is no body serial number, someone in the past replaced some of the wood including under front seat. The engine serial is C26941, which is a '15 according to your records which is good.

All, getting ready to send the engine out for rebuild. What color should that be when complete? Does anyone have the color specs for the midnight blue?

Certainly more questions to come, thanks for the help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, March 18, 2017 - 05:27 am:

Brian, seeing your blue primered hood former reminded me of problems I had fitting the hood on my car. The hole in the sheetmetal former was well and truly flogged out, so I bronze welded a nut to the inside of the former and then drilled out the thread to fit the rod. The only trouble was, it needed to be off centre to get a good fit, so I had to go through the process all over again. I suggest you weld a piece of 1/4" plate behind the hole and drill for the rod when you go to fit the hood. That way the hole can be drilled to give the optimal fit for the hood.

This is a little early in your restoration, but it may prevent some headaches later on.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Saturday, March 18, 2017 - 10:56 am:

Allan, would you have any pictures of your Canadian 15 you could share with me. Specifically the unique to Canada areas. You can email me at bhealey@northland(dot)net, Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Saturday, March 18, 2017 - 10:57 am:

And thanks for the tip, feel free to keep them coming


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Saturday, March 18, 2017 - 10:26 pm:

15 top saddles


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Saturday, March 18, 2017 - 10:34 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Saturday, March 18, 2017 - 10:35 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Saturday, March 18, 2017 - 10:37 pm:

David, thanks for sharing. I have never seen that before, and I start my search.... Of you have other things that apply please share.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Sunday, March 19, 2017 - 12:09 am:

Here is some Canadian car info from last year's forum including some detailed photos I took of a Canadian T.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/663380.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Sunday, March 19, 2017 - 01:28 pm:

Brian here are some pictures of a later model. They made them non-handed, however the mount holes are the same I bolted the earlier model to the later model just to show the bolt holes are the same. I have a Canadian 15, however I acquired a later rear component with later brackets. Both assemblies will fit with a little surgery on the wood components, they would have to be cut on a slight different angle


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Sunday, March 19, 2017 - 01:30 pm:

Additional photos


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Sunday, March 19, 2017 - 01:31 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Sunday, March 19, 2017 - 01:59 pm:

Brian, the later saddle and bracket I showed you will not be an issue with yours. It appears that your model fit the Canadian saddle bracket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, March 19, 2017 - 09:01 pm:

David,

Thank you for posting the photos of the Canadian top bow holder. It is one of many parts we would like to better document what was used when.

I looked but I did not find any photos from 1915 that show the top rest clearly. But looking at a copy of the Jan 1, 1925 Ford Price List of Parts and Accessories, it indicates on page 56 that the Runabout/Roadster/Torepedo top prop. rest with strap was used 1913-1916 part number 3877X.
I believe that is the same part used on the 1913-1922 USA cars.

The same price list shows the Bair top bow holder right #7952X listed for 1917-1922 and part #7951X listed for the left side for 1917-1922.

Based on the above, I suspect Brian's car may have the correct top bow holder for a 1915 Canadian touring. Note the 1925 Price list did NOT have the two man touring top parts listed or I missed them. And of course the listing could be inaccurate and/or Ford of Canada may have done things more than one way.

David -- did your Canadian 1915 have the top rest installed or did you install them on the car? And do you have any early photos showing the type of top rest on the Canadian cars?

There is an excellent article on Gordon Sylvester's unrestored original 1919 Canadian Touring in the Mar-Apr 2005 "Model T Times." I clipped a photo of the Bair top rest from that article and it is shown below.



But I do not have any documentation yet that the Bair style top rest was used before 1917. Perhaps you or someone else has some early photos or a mostly original car that came that way etc.? If so, I would love to document that information.

So much to learn about the cars. And some times the information appears to contradict other information. Thank you all for your help.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Healey on Sunday, March 19, 2017 - 11:32 pm:

Hap, as I continue to search, I find another older post that you had shared that supports the saddle with leather strap as being the correct version for the15 Canadian car.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/35088.html?1188808811

No idea what we would do with your research too keep us going, thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russ Furstnow on Monday, March 20, 2017 - 12:02 am:

Brian, The latest edition of the MTFCI Judging Guidelines (7th Edition) has a section for each year with the unique aspects of the Canadian Ford. This information was obtained using Canadian data, information provided by Canadian owners and observations of original cars. I hope this helps, Russ Furstnow


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Monday, March 20, 2017 - 02:03 am:

After looking through a variety of 15, 16 and 17 pictures it is difficult to differentiate the Canadian cars from the American, however all of the 15 and 16 models had the dropped cupped saddle. The 17 models had a mixture of the cupped saddle and the clasp style. Some of the models had no saddles, this begs the question were they a factory extra, were they installed at the dealers or jobbers? I acquired an unmolested 1926 touring and it came with no saddles just rubber plugs in the holes. Did any of the early models come the same way? This could account for the variety of saddles. My 26 would accommodate the American style or the Canadian style. At the time I was unaware of the differences and ordered the American style saddles through Langs. I have learned that the Canadian models fit on the same pin. They are non-handed unlike the earlier models. I have one only and looking for a second one.


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