Hey, guys, I know this is probably a stupid question but how difficult is it to remove a starter from an early T? A guy contacted me the other day about an '11 Touring that had it's original engine rebuilt, but they added a starter to it. I really don't want a starter, and would like to remove it so it retains it's originality. How much work is involved in this? Most of you will probably say just leave the starter in, but I'm a bit of a purist and want the car as it came off the assembly line without the starter.
The Most Important Question here is whether the guy still has the original aluminum transmission cover to replace on the engine.
Then too, if you try to remove the starter, without first removing the Bendix and spring assembly, your Magneto will no longer function.
He said he knows where the original aluminum hogshead cover is, so that shouldn't be a problem but if it's not available, what's the cost to replace one?
Most likely several hundred dollars, IF you can find one.
Take off the starter and replace with block off plates, very easy, Bob
Some Ts start much easier with a crank than others.
You might want to try cranking for a while and then make a purest decision..
Over the last six months or so, a few aluminum hogsheads have been offered, they seemed to run $250- $350.
There's one offered in the classifieds right now for $115.
The hogs head for an '11 does not have the reinforcements around the bolt holes like the later ones and are harder to find because of that. If you are a real purist that is what you need to look for but they are often damaged around the bolt holes where they tend to break from people tightening them down too much to stop leaks. I would not worry about starting with the crank. They all start easily by crank if they are set up right in the first place and you get familiar with their quirks. I would add that it is very hard to repair the aluminum hogs heads as they are so impregnated with oil that you can't get a good fix. I am saying that because I would recommend that you spend a bit more to get a good one without issues and/or previous repairs and then be very careful putting it on. If someone has a good way to repair them a I'd like to know it as I have a few sitting on my work bench that need work.
To find a correct hogshead, you also need to know when in 1911 the car was produced - first the 1910 style hogshead was used that has a square hole for adjusting the bands. It was a little narrower than all later hogsheads, so to use a starter hogshead on such an early engine, I think you also have to change the pan to the later style.
Then in February 1911 a wider version of the square hole hogsheat came together with a new wider oil pan and lastly in june the familiar tapered style opening for band adjustments was introduced. Three different styles of hogsheads in one model year
Good suggestion on driving the car for a while and only hand cranking it before you swap. If you drive the car a lot and in any type of traffic, do you want to have to hand crank it if you stall in traffic? When our club was asked to watch the cars when in the hotel parking lot for a regional HCCA tour, a number of very nice pre 1915 cars had starter fitted to them.
I think I see your dilemma. _1911's sure don't grow on trees and as they're so rare, you may not get another opportunity to own one, so you're considering the purchase of an example that doesn't suit you perfectly. _If it were me, I'd be primarily concerned about the condition of the car and the price, and if those were what I was looking for, perhaps bringing it back to stock configuration might be considered an ongoing project not to be hurried.
I'd be tempted to just drive it and enjoy it and in the meanwhile, keep my eye out for the correct hogshead, talk to a lot of experts and be very much forearmed before tackling the project.
I had a starter installed on my '15 Touring and I just love it. _The Fountainhead Antique Automobile Museum in Alaska, one of the best brass-car museums in the world, makes a practice of installing starters on some of the rarest automobiles on the planet, some of which are multi-million dollar one-of-a-kinds. _What I'm saying is, maybe having a starter isn't such a bad thing.
On the other hand, if it's your intent to compete in AACA and HCCA affairs and you have places like Pebble Beach and Amelia Island in your sights, then yeah, the car has to be perfect.
Don't let these guys scare you. If you want to remove the starter because you know it's not correct and that bothers you, then go ahead. I understand fully (And take a ration of crap from some of these guys occasionally for it, too). "Purist" is a dirty word around here. Just know that there are a few who do understand how you feel. Anyway, how often do you stall it in traffic and are so profusely grateful you had a starter? Not often enough for me to even remember the last time. Got one with and one without a starter and don't remember the last time I used the starter on the one that does have one. I've considered removing it for the same reason you cite. It didn't come on the truck, but someone added it later. Probably all it will take to make me take it off is a failure of either the generator or the starter and that's probably all she wrote for it and I'll put it back like Henry made it. My son uses it on the rare occasion he ever drives it. Mostly because he doesn't know the quirks of the truck and therefore has trouble starting it.
Well, Bob is correct in his thinking as well as Hal - I am a bit of a purist and even though others may prefer a starter, I would feel inclined to remove it simply because I want it the way Henry produced it. I also enjoy the "art" of cranking! And it's true that I was concerned about the extra costs that may be involved to remove it and put it back to original. I know you have to put a different hogshead on to accommodate the starter, so finding a correct 1911 aluminum hogshead may be problematic but not a deal breaker. Thanks for all the comments and advice!
You wrote: I also enjoy the "art" of cranking!
Nothing to stop you from cranking your heart away and not using an installed starter.
Advantage is that should the unlikely happen and the car stalls in an inopportune spot (or your foot accidentally hits the key and turns off the ignition), a quick heel stomp will make things "right again.
Just another consideration...
Bill if you do need a late 11 12 I have one
Robin, I sent you a PM on that hogshead.