Locked up whilst on tour ..any thoughts?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Locked up whilst on tour ..any thoughts?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - 04:19 pm:

Good morning
This is a broad knowledge based search for an on tour fix.

We ran into low fuel 2 miles from the days tour finish and found a huge hill more than a T with low fuel level could handle.

We drove up backwards and made it about 3/4 of the way but this hill was just too long.

We overheated and locked up the transmission....which after a couple of days will only allow a rear wheels off the ground start.
When the oil and trans heats up, l regain most if my regular controlability.

Any thoughts.

David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - 04:24 pm:

I think you toasted your transmission. Consider that as you were backing up this steep hill, most of your oil was in the front of the engine and not in the transmission area, just where it was most needed, given your long run in reverse. Personally, I wouldn't drive it again, fearing further damage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - 04:25 pm:

I vote for a seized triple gear on pin.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - 06:34 pm:

We got it running after 1/2 of off ground starting, low and high are working fine, reverse is ok too.
Only when restarting do we have trouble ...no ability to crank.

Light drag felt when stopped.

We only have two days if the tour left.

BUT STILL A LOT OF MILES TO COVER.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - 07:12 pm:

I am with Jack Putnam - you have a bushing seized to the pin that is now likely spinning on the surface between the bushing and the gear. I would stop driving the thing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - 09:22 pm:

I also think you likely have a seized triple gear (or 2 or 3?). It is a common problem, usually on transmissions that have been rebuilt some time in the past. Most people insist on setting the gears and pins too tight (modern thinking). Under an extreme condition (like you had), things get a little hot, expansion causes the bushing to seize to the pin (largest surface area of contact). After it cools down, sometimes they will break free and be just fine. Sometimes, they will break free in the wrong place. The pin will remain frozen to the bushing, and either the busing will break free from the gear, or the pin will begin spinning in the flywheel. I had a transmission once that did that (before I had it). When I took it apart, not one, but two of the pins had run loose in the flywheel (I still have the pins). The pins, being hardened, were hardly worn at all, but fell out of the flywheel because the holes were worn way oversize!
Your gamble. Finish the tour, and listen close to your engine for any sounds indicating floating triple gears. I would actually consider doing this myself if it were a tour I really wanted to go on. The odds are fairly good you will complete the tour. The risk is that you could turn a minor rebuild into a major replacement (my flywheel was basically destroyed, but no other real damage). (I was lucky!)
In my case, that transmission was in a very tired original engine that I ran temporarily in a car I had years ago. It had probably been bad for a long time before I got it. I drove it for a couple years, and many hundreds (probably more than a thousand) miles. The whole time, the engine was tired, but the transmission was the nicest, most quiet, best shifting model T I ever had! I had hoped to just use the transmission in another car after I changed the whole unit out of its temporary duty. When I went to take the engine and transmission apart, I had it hanging on a hoist (transmission still attached to engine). While hanging, two pins and gears fell out onto the concrete below!
I knew in an instant I was going to rebuild another transmission.

And, by the by, I am waiting for someone to want to argue with me on the reason I gave for the pins and bushings sticking together, instead of the bushing and gear.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, March 22, 2017 - 09:34 pm:

That's why I carry these.


No backing up hills, no long walks to the next filling station.
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Saturday, March 25, 2017 - 06:36 am:

Tour Finished today.
Took the gamble as mentioned by Wayne and highlighted by Jerry Jack and John.

Slowed driving and a shortened version of yesterdays tour route gave us a crank start again....albeit it infrequently.

We are home now, no new sounds, no lack of power and now booked inline for engine trans removal and checking/repairing.

We were advised to keep going to the finish if possible and we certainly are glad we did.

Great event, great friendly folks and a fantastic organising committee.

All credit to them.

David Dare


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, March 25, 2017 - 05:55 pm:

Congratulations!!!!
It may not be advisable? But I have limped cars to the completion of several tours over the years. I don't recall doing any serious harm doing so. There is of course a risk. If you are careful, you can likely not do serious damage.
There is a certain satisfaction in being challenged by the fates, and beating them.
To the wrenches! Time to fix it right.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, March 25, 2017 - 06:00 pm:

Congratulations on finishing the tour - please follow up here with your findings when you do your inspections (with a link back to this thread), thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Sunday, March 26, 2017 - 03:33 am:

I have it in line ready for a pull down, as soon as l see the cause l will post some pics and words.
It did fire up again today on the crank, only once though. The other was a lift off the ground and crank, engage low, drop and drive away.
Seems if l push down on the low pedal it gains full controllability right away...... not when cold though.

cheers again and thanks for your responses. we did take on the gamble on this occasion and got away with it, however, it could so easily have gone against us far to easily too.

David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, March 26, 2017 - 04:32 am:

David, give a yell if you need to drag it down my way or need to check out or find some parts.
Cheers. Frank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Monday, March 27, 2017 - 01:37 am:

cheers Frank.

David


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, March 27, 2017 - 02:25 am:

David...

Whilst I pretty much agree with others and something in the triple gears is now amiss...

I will mention something that happened to me once and only once, years ago. I was hill climbing in forward and the machine just lurched to a stop...locked up and could not start (I didn't think of raising a wheel at the time). Had 6 guys lift it on a flatbed...dragged it off at home...stared at it disgusted. After a few weeks more for curiosity than anything else...I backed off on the clutch fingers a full turn surmising maybe the 'heat' of the climb had made things swell too big. I didn't expect much out of the exercise but a strange thing did happen...

The car and clutch came free again and I started it up and it idled nice. I shut it down and took the fingers back in 1/2 turn and to this day now some 30 years later that clutch is STILL in the same place and the tranny has never been torn into.

May not work for you...but for what is a 15 minute investment of time may be worth a try!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, March 27, 2017 - 01:58 pm:

David,

Glad you made it!

I'll admit, I did a similar thing on a speedster to tour a couple of years ago. I had a front main bearing getting worse by the day. I babied it through the tour. It was silent going down hill, but when I opened up the throttle it made me sick to hear it. She stayed with me though and we finished the tour, "under power", so to speak. Went straight to Joe Bell's shop after that for all new babbitt and a Scat crank too. No, I didn't hurt the original crank, but that was definitely the right time to install the Scat I had on the shelf.

As to frozen triple gear bushings, my dad's Touring had a bushing frozen to the pin for many years. The gear rotated directly on the bushing. It was a little noisy, but really not a problem. Only discovered it when the engine was pulled to put in a new starter ring gear.

Anyway, looking forward to your report!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine on Monday, March 27, 2017 - 06:21 pm:

Just wondering, can transmission damage from going backwards up a long steep hill be avoided by overfilling with say 1/2 or 1 gallon of engine oil?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, March 28, 2017 - 11:06 am:

Contantine,

I think most of the extra oil would puke out of the fill tube.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Tuesday, March 28, 2017 - 07:42 pm:

OH well,
its a lesson learned, backing up small climbs is ok, big ones, not ok.

The car performed beautifully for the whole event, climbed up one of the biggest hills around, my wife didn't have to get out and walk, except where l backed up the hill into Beechworth, and we managed the situation reasonably tidily right to home.

I think we won the vintage trophy for last veteran-vintage running and the peoples choice award for the tour just on sheer determination of getting right round and the fact that 'who the hell would take a Model T on the tour' ... we had a ball, everyone we met was willing us to finish and with great people who all had the same idea of having a great weeks driving up in the hills, what more could you ask for.
I think the idea grew that a 104 year old model T isn't as frail as it might appear standing next to it.

We are certainly doing it again next year and my wife has said (insert declared) next year we (insert she) will be driving .... the '72 Ranchero GT 400... I'm going to be navigator .. fair enough too.

I will be pulling the engine and trans from the T shortly and l will advise what l find.
NOTE - only standard T trans discs, no turbo 400's are installed in this car.

pics just after the top of Mount Hotham ski resort.
RACV fly the flag alpine tour 2017 -1
wont go near the edge , wont move away from the car

the road back down

my wife at the last night fancy dress party in Mansfield.

and lastly ... Mr Bean .. who had tears forming in everyone's eyes, Alistair well played.




cheers

David Dare


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, March 28, 2017 - 10:46 pm:

Beautiful car! All in all. Well done!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine on Wednesday, March 29, 2017 - 12:43 pm:

David, thanks for the pics. Sounds like a great event.

Jerry, good point; perhaps one could do something to stop the oil coming out of there?

This has been a good thread; I never considered the possibility of the transmission being damaged going up a hill in reverse. Always carry extra fuel and oil when driving somewhere you've never been before and if you must take a long hill in reverse perhaps stop the car pointing sideways half way up to cool and oil things back up.


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