Drive shaft ball shim, any tricks to install it .???

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Drive shaft ball shim, any tricks to install it .???
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Wednesday, March 29, 2017 - 08:48 pm:

I am at the point of installing the rebuilt rear end in my speedster project. It will marry up to a like new, very little used, KC Warford trans. I thought before I install the rear end, I would do a test fit of the KC Warford to the torque tube while still on the bench. I was also wanting to verify that the u-joint was not binding and still was able to slide back and forth, before I drilled the hole for the u-joint pin in my new drive shaft. The u-joint was OK with no binding. During the test fit, I found out I have play in the ball to transmission joint. Its probably .035 to maybe .050 play. I thought I would use one of the shims sold to fix the loose play with. But no matter how I try to fit the shim, it locks up the ball joint. I do not think it is too thick, as I have more play than it is thick.????? any tricks or suggestions ,??? One more question. Does the torque tube ball fit directly into the back of the KC Warford. If so how well does the aluminum hold up to wear. It seems like the aluminum would wear out fairly fast, with the steel torque tube ball in contact with the aluminum. One more thing is that I chose a torque tube to shorten that was probably one of my better tubes, with very little wear that I could see. any help will be appreciated.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles Weisgerber- Vancouver WA. on Wednesday, March 29, 2017 - 11:51 pm:

Hi Donnie, I can only offer information relating to the shim. In my case I have a standard setup, torque tube etc. on my 1925. I found that the shim wanted to move around a bit while i was trying to fit the ball retaining collar and start the four retaining bolts. When I think I had everything as it should the shim would get pulled or cocked to one side as I tightened the bolts instead of remaining centered. Anyway after a number of attempts I got everything to work out. In retrospect I think I may have had angle of the axle and torque tube a little low initially. I ran the ball retaining bolts about half way in then attached the axle to the spring. I went back to tighten up the retaining collar and everything worked out fine. Hope this helped.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Thursday, March 30, 2017 - 11:44 am:

Shim is too thick, try a thinner one. The shim may be .030" thick (for example), but it's the angular thickness that gets ya.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, March 30, 2017 - 01:13 pm:

I measured the play in the ball today. It is .050 to .055 end play front to rear. I also measured the shim sold by langs. They are .012 thick. In theory the shim should take up aprox 1/2 of the play. I have tried all morning to get it to work. No matter what I do it will still lock up the ball. I thought that the shim may be too wide. So I took scissors to it and cut off about 1/8 to 3/16 of the width. I thought if it was too wide, it my be trying to jam into the point at the ball center. I am sure it now is only fitting into the rear of the ball inside the drive shaft ball retainer. So its time to get back to the shop and fight the gremmlins again.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, March 30, 2017 - 01:27 pm:

Donnie,

You may find that while you have .050 end play, you probably don't have nearly as much diametral play. Meaning, the diameter of the retainer ring, at it's biggest end, near the transmission, is probably not worn anywhere near as much as it is at its smaller end and it still fits the ball fairly well. Or, think of it like this, the retainer has been stretched open, as if the ball had been pulled back with enough force to distort the spherical cup.

So, the shim is likely binding at the larger end of the retainer diameter.

You might try reassembling, without the shim, and hammering on the ring to systematically close it up again to reestablish a good fit with the ball, (although I don't suggest that while it's coupled to a pricey, aluminum Warford).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, March 30, 2017 - 02:23 pm:

Jerry, you are probably correct. I think the retainer could be "stretched" as you mentioned. The ball front side seems to fit the Warford very well. The retainer seems to fit nicely at the large end of the opening. It is hard to judge the small end, but it does seem to be a little loose around the seam between the retainer and the ball of the drive shaft. I may need to do some "gentle blacksmith work, on the retainer. :-( :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, March 30, 2017 - 02:32 pm:

Donnie,

You didn't put a gasket under the retainer ring did you? If you did: don't.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, March 30, 2017 - 03:42 pm:

Jerry, No gasket. I did try using a gasket and the shim, thinking the combination may work. The gasket was too thick and It still was lose with the shim in place. I worked another hour on fitting. I did a little blacksmithing of the small end of the retainer. Then I took an 8 inch "fine cut" file to the flat mating surface of the retainer. I probably removed about .005 of the surface while making sure it was flat. Then I took the file to the mating surface of the Warford. I draw filed it looking for any high spots. I may have removed .002 of the surface. After a test fit, I now have about .025 of end play remaining. So I have gained 1/2 of my play. Seems aprox .007 moved me .025 as to play. I think Im headed in the right direction now. Now I need to figure out where to get another .007 of metal to remove or blacksmith...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, March 30, 2017 - 03:45 pm:

Maybe some heating & quenching will close down your retainer end a little more?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, March 30, 2017 - 05:05 pm:

Found too those shims are bit hard to fit, did like Charles as holding the shim in place was the hard part. Shim wanted to shift out of place.

The old time ones had nice large tabs and a rolled edge to keep the shim centered. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Olson on Thursday, March 30, 2017 - 06:35 pm:

That Bredar's shim look like a slick way to manage installation!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Friday, March 31, 2017 - 07:36 pm:

Finally, after hours and hours of work, I have a good fit. I finally gave up on the shim idea. Maybe the old style Bredar's shown above would work, but the current version is a real "pain in the ***". What I finally decided to do is to remove .010 from the end of the Warford that attaches to the drive shaft. The Warford flange is .400 thick so removing .010 is not going to hurt a thing. So with what I may have draw filed off the retainer, I think I have removed somewhere near .012 to .015 total. So it appears that about .015 removed from the flange faces will tighten up .050 (measured with a dial indicator)of end play around the ball. I am really glad I decided to do a test fit on the bench. This would have been a nightmare to do under the car. I now have zero noticeable play and still can rotate the ball. Now its time to install it in the speedster project. :-) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, April 01, 2017 - 11:43 am:

I think some Molykote on the aluminum wear surface would be a good idea. It should work into the surface and add to the wear resistance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, April 01, 2017 - 12:25 pm:

Removed my posting missed the part about being the KC Warford.

(Message edited by redmodelt on April 01, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, April 01, 2017 - 01:52 pm:

Ted, Molykote is a good idea. Ill try and find some ... We used it in the Nuclear power houses I used to work in. It was a very good product....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Sunday, April 02, 2017 - 04:56 pm:

You might also think about installing an o ring around ball at the flange, I think I used an 1/8" to seal it up. I also pre-greased the ball.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Sunday, April 02, 2017 - 04:56 pm:

Oh any new photos?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, April 02, 2017 - 08:32 pm:

John, Ill check about using an o-ring. Sounds like a good idea if I have the room for one. I also pre greased the u-oint and ball. I do not have any more speedster project update photos to post just yet. I have taken a bunch of photos, but Im hoping to wait till I get the body back from the upholstery shop, before I do another update.... :-)


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