Cylinder Head Install?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Cylinder Head Install?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 12:22 am:

So I am getting close to re-installing Shirley's Cylinder head after I de-rust it. I know the bolt pattern (clean and chase the threads, use new head bolts, start from the center, work to the outside, re-tighten several times, 45 lbs torque) but getting the cylinder head on with good gasket alignment is difficult. I made guide studs and I've done it once before but it was difficult to get on especially at the firewall where you have to push it hard against the firewall to get it on. Do you put the guide studs on the firewall side holes? Last time I did them at the fan side and it was difficult to keep the gasket in place at the firewall. I only used 2 guide studs last time because it seemed that more it just would not go on easily. Is there a better way?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 05:25 am:

Ignacio, I coat the copper head gasket with silverfrost aluminised paint on both sides and lay it in position on the block, with any two of the pistons at the top of the stroke to keep it in place. Then I lower the head into place by holding it through the sparkplug holes. I loosely fit all the headbolts, and crank the motor over to make sure nothing comes into contact with the gasket. Then you are good to go tightening down the bolts.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie, Memphis TN on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 08:54 am:

Don't forget the head gasket has a right and a wrong way to go. At first glance it looks like it could go either way, but there are some very small holes that must line up correctly. They are part of the water circulating system, and if you put the gasket on the wrong way the cooling water can't circulate properly.

Don't ask me how I know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 09:04 am:

Big hole to the rear!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 09:23 am:

While I don't see the need for this whatever floats yer boat. It should be obvious, especially if you've done it before as you state, that putting a stud where it makes it near impossible to install the head (your pushing against the firewall), isn't the best spot for it. They should be where their easy to remove also. Definitely not buried in back. This in fact shouldn't be a problem at all as long as you don't toss the head onto the gasket. Put it on with 2 bolts hanging thru one on each side line it up and set down gently. Or better yet have an assistant start the bolts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 09:41 am:


Try it with the guide studs at 1 and 5. That should let you lower the rear enough to miss the firewall. A torque wrench probably won't reach #4 and #15. There you can use a crowfoot or just go the old T era route of turning the bolt as tight as you can with the #2335 Ford wrench.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 10:18 am:

Last time the problem was aligning the firewall side gasket. The guide studs at the front did not have a problem but there was nothing at the back. They didn't align well at the firewall and it ended up fracturing the old gasket. The guide studs in front and the need to push it against the firewall made it slide around on the firewall side gasket. I can put the piston heads for #4 and #1 up. That could help. Also putting a big enough to hold wire through the spark plug holes to help lower it into place keeping it off the firewall gasket? I have Copper Kote spray but have never used it. Is it sticky?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 10:21 am:

Easier to just pull the crank over to have #4 and #1 piston at top, the piston rides over the wall of the cylinder. That will align the head gasket so it won't shift on you as head is positioned.

Use Copper Coat, both sides, and place gasket correct, so big and little holes of the water jacket matches.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 10:28 am:

You have to have the two rear head bolt in the head before you drop the head down, there is no way in a stock car to install them with the head sitting on the block without sliding the head to the front and dislodging the gasket.
Look close at Dan's pictures and note the smooth side of the gasket is the down side and the side with the crimped fire ring is up, you shouldn't go wrong if you do it that way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Severn - SE Texas on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 11:30 am:

Hey Ignacio,

Just from my ancient memory I thought the torque was 55 pounds, not 45 pounds. Look it up. I will, too.

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell, Huntsville, AL on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 01:57 pm:

Steve Jelf, you can get a torque wrench on 4 and 15 if you use a universal above the socket. Unlike a crows foot, it holds true torque values with the universal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gordon Drisko on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 02:13 pm:

I use clothes pins to hold the two rear bolts up out of the way when installing a head with the engine already in the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 02:29 pm:

45 is good enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 02:36 pm:

Bill - Ford never gave a torque number, just "tight" and the threads in any early brass era engine can fail at 55 lb-ft, so if it seals at 45, stay with that. If it doesn't and if it's a newer engine, then go up a little to 50 or 55 :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 03:15 pm:

I was going to suggest a piece of bailing wire around the two rear bolts to hold them out of the way, but still in their holes, but I like the clothespin idea better!
Ignacio, you worry me when you talk about a wire through the spark plug holes, that would indicate you are wiring between two holes--NOT a good idea. go to a hardware store, get 6 1/2" pipe nipples, about4 inches long, and two T fittings. Screw the a nipple into two spark plug holes, probably #1 and #3, just finger tight is good enough, then screw the branch leg of the T fittings onto the nipples, then the remaining 4 nipples into the through section of the Ts. Now you have handles to lift the head into position.
If you're really cheap, but careful, you can return the fittings to the store claiming you didn't need them! (YES, folks do that sort of thing!)
:-)

PS, I agree 45 ft/lbs is "good enough."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Monday, April 03, 2017 - 10:19 pm:

Store clerk: "Uh sir was there anything wrong with these pipe fittings you are returning?"
Response: "It's personal."
Store clerk: "Well ok then."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 - 01:01 am:

So I put 1 and 4 pistons up, Copper Cote, clothespins and rear bolts in place, plumbing pipe handles on, let's do a test fit. Not good. The firewall is in the way. The end of the block is actually UNDER the firewall. See picture. That was the problem last time. Do I have someone pry bar the firewall back somehow then put the head on?

Block under the firewall.
Chasing head bolt threads. Head ready to be put on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 - 01:40 am:

Something is wrong with your firewall location! Not enough pics to figure it out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 - 08:23 am:

Here is some more pictures of the firewall and engine. John Tannehill noted in the past that the body actually seems a little off position. Slid backwards slightly? The motor shelves are not the correct ones and the body seems slid backwards a little to compensate. Moving the body forward would make the block even further under the firewall.
Firewall and engine.
Body and engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 - 09:23 am:

Don't think you have an issue with body set forward. The space is tight normally. About all you can do now is to slightly bend back the recess panel of the firewall to gain just enough clearance to slide the head back.



Still, looks like enough clearance in your photo.
The cyl. head rear lip should clear the recess panel overhang, with the back of the head just clearing or touching sometimes. I like to put a fat rubber band on the two rear head bolts, hold them flush up, not protruding from the underside of the cyl. head.

Wiggle the head in place, check gasket position, by viewing any overhang on the block edges. Then place all bolts loose, align all of them in each of the threaded holes a few turns to check again the cyl. head placement.

Typical clearance on this '23 below. Should have little or no clearance between the head and the recessed panel. The fit is a bit tight, but normal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 - 09:40 am:

My eyes may be deceiving me, but if you look at Ignatio's second last photo, the offset in the firewall to frame brackets looks more like the type used on wooden firewalls. If the body is bolted up to these it will be forward some 3/4".

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, April 04, 2017 - 02:05 pm:

Alan posted just what I was thinking, wooden firewall brackets with a metal firewall mounted on them. The factory fix was longer bolts with an offset spacer piece (some have claimed Henry used magneto magnet spools).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 12:58 am:

@Allan and David so the body is actually 3/4 inch more forward than it should be? How hard is it to slide the body backward 3/4 and put a spacer such as magneto magnet spools?

I am getting ready to put the cylinder head on. I detached the lower steering column mount to improve the bending of the lower firewall. Will try to lower it on tomorrow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Schrepfer on Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 03:42 am:

Use Never Seez on head bolt threads, helps with accurate torque, helps with rust prevention, makes it easier for removal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 09:20 am:

It is on. Things that really helped:

. Cylinder 1 and 4 up to hold the gasket.
. Copper cote to stick it.
. Clothespins on the rear bolts to keep them up out of the way.
. Pieces of half inch pipe in the spark plug holes for handles.
. Removing the coil box and front steering mount to make the firewall bend easier.
. Chased the head bolt threads with a tap and blew crud out of head bolt hole with air, new head bolts.

With all that it went on easy.

Cylinder head in place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Wednesday, April 05, 2017 - 09:32 am:

Becoming an old pro in short order Ignacio :-)


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