Judging Guidelines

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Judging Guidelines
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, April 09, 2017 - 10:57 am:

I purchased the seventh edition of the MTFCI judging guidelines, and am impressed. A lot of work went into this edition, and it shows. However, I talked with Gail Rodda a couple of years ago about a problem in his book on the battery box tops, and he agreed he had it wrong, but failed to make the change. The tops have round corners from 1924 on back, and have square corners from 1925 - 1927. You can check any original parts book, and the pictures prove it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Sunday, April 09, 2017 - 11:47 am:

Why so judgmental ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 10:29 am:

Aren't the judging guidelines judgmental? I believe that is the purpose of them!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 10:59 am:

Burger,

Why so mental?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 11:19 am:

Great thread! :-O


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 12:28 pm:

Should the National Mental Health association make a guideline on how to identify and deal with judgmental people?


I did hear that they were working on guidelines to identify and deal with people that have the Model T affliction.
As of today they have identified two of the 12 steps.
1. Admit that you have a T problem.
2.?
3.?
4.?
5.?
Someplace down here - there is no cure so you just have to get more Model T's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Humphrey on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 01:29 pm:

As of today they have identified two of the 12 steps.
1. Admit that you have a T problem.
2. Admit its not a problem its a sensation.
3.?
4.?
5.?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 03:19 pm:

3 of the 12 steps

1. Admit you have a T problem
2. Admit its not a problem its a sensation.
3. Attend TT meetings with others that have the affliction.
4.?
5.?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 01:27 am:

I attended my weekly TT meeting tonight and completed the 2nd Step,
rebuilding the rear end for my TT. Looks like the 3rd Step is installing
it. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 02:04 am:

4. Attend swap meets religiously


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 03:18 am:

5. Wish you could attend swap meets religiously, again. :-( :-( Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 03:33 am:

6. Admit that "need" and "want" are actually two different things.
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 04:51 am:

David D., I finally figured that out about ten years ago!!! :-) :-) Now, I'm trying to thin things down a bit. Finally realized that I won't ever get everything done that I had wanted to. Moving some "stuff" on to some of the younger generation that can use it or find a good home for it. At least it won't go to the scrappers. I don't consider anything as a loss, because my old Buddy/Mentor and I had many, many happy times chasing this "Junk" :-) down for over forty years. As far as I'm concerned, it's no different than Mushroom hunting. :-) Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 06:22 am:

Dave, you are considered an enabler! Contributing to the affliction! Thanks buddy!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Thomas on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 07:41 am:

Know to cut back when "your model T obsession ruined Christmas"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie Spokane, WA on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 09:02 am:

Larry, are pictures in parts books really proof?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 10:26 am:

I think the pictures in the parts books are a good start, but in some cases they are a little behind. When I really need proof, I go to the Benson Ford archives, which is difficult for me living in California, but I've been there three times.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 10:46 am:

When I think "judging", I think of competitive judging. This is usually
centered on a car show and typically involves people and criteria I do
not ascribe to, namely anal retentive purist snobs that only see an oft-
unproven set of guidelines as the one true path to rectitude. And that
nearly always hinges on "factory original".

What are the guidelines for "refurbished to the appearance of a well
maintained 10-year-old vehicle" ? I am so turned off by Rainman antics
and obsession for an ambiguous "perfection" that I have entirely moth-
balled my 50's cars and turned to a "farm perfect" old Model T truck
that looks better NOT perfect than it would as a pristine museum floor
paperweight as my vehicular fun venue.

I would be nothing short of annoyed if anyone ever tried to give me a
trophy or ribbon, simply because of the assumption that I am one of THOSE
people who values such landfill kitsch.

Thumbs up and big smiles are my reward for putting a vision of "What
the hell is that ?" on the road again. No guidelines necessary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 11:21 am:

Good on ya Burger, but other people are allowed to have different priorities in life, right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 11:54 am:

Hey Burger what if someone remarked to you about your "farm perfect" car the way you did about those who strive for originality. Are the terms anal retentive snobs, Rainman antics etc really appropriate. I don't show my cars but I like them original in that they have parts correct for the year. Is there something wrong with that? Not for me. You need to lighten up and shut your yap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russ Furstnow on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 12:01 pm:

Well, I guess it is time to comment on this thread. The Judging Guidelines are written to provide an enthusiast with information related to the restoration of a Model T. Specific years are addressed, and components used during a "model" year are identified. The guidelines contain information that distinguishes what is considered "typical" for each year of Model T production, and identify vehicles manufactured and assembled for purchase in the United States and Canada. Speedster and TT Trucks are also included in the Judging Guidelines. Detailed, high resolution photos of individual parts are also included in the Guidelines. This is the ONLY document that identifies specifics of the Canadian Model T.

Many Model T enthusiasts provided their expertise by sharing information that is included in the Guidelines. Individuals providing information for the Guidelines include Bruce McCalley, Bill Barth, Steve Hubert, Gail Rodda and even Larry Smith.

Finally, the Guidelines are a "living document", in that they are changed and updated as new, relevant information arises. The Guidelines are also used for non-competitive MTFCI judging, where a car DOES NOT compete with other cars, but is judged in accordance with the information in the Guidelines.

I hope this information clarifies the purpose of the MTFCI Judging Guidelines.
Russ Furstnow
MTFCI Chief Judge


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 12:18 pm:

Richard, Burger constantly insults anyone who enjoys their automotive hobby as *they* see fit. If it doesn't fit his profile he spews his diarrhea. We all have read his priorities many times. Just like many on here move past without comment on a subject that doesn't appeal to them. It would be nice if he was willing to do that too.
Sadly I don't see that happening and the insults will continue to get thrown.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Humphrey on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 12:18 pm:

Well My turn..... I have put my 24 roadster Pickup in three small local shows.
I took first place in one and first place in my division in another (beating out a 23 pristine Stutz Bearcat). And my car is almost year correct but has many dents and some holes in it.. and the seat is just something I made by myself. and i have no top. And as for the third show.. two VW's took first and second. I did not even place.
But on the other note. Thumbs up and big smiles and lots of waves make it worth working on and driving...

Just my two pennys worth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n LakeOzark,Missourah on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 12:21 pm:

Thanks Russ. Good eye Larry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 12:50 pm:

Thanks, Russ. We appreciate your clarification of the purpose of the Guidelines, and the effort involved in writing them.

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 02:59 pm:

Thanks Russ and Larry. It's unfortunate that a potentially helpful and informative topic was derailed by someone with no interest or understanding of the topic anyway.

I have been meaning to purchase the judging guidelines, simply because I like my cars to be as correct as possible, even though I don't have them judged.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 03:10 pm:

They could equally as well be named Restoration Guidelines. When I helped with MTFCI club sales, during my time on the board, I would always promote them in that way, since lots of guys don't care about judging, but do like to be correct. Sold a lot more books that way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marv Konrad (Green Bay Area) on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 03:41 pm:

Thanks for all of the 'opinions'. Having exhibited at the 'World of Wheels' myself, competing vs. the likes of $1.5 million+ valued vehicles that never even had gasoline in their tanks, I do understand 'Judging'...

The lesson? Enjoy and respect our (and others') vehicles and their owners for their intentions, as well as for their intended use. How many of us twist wrenches the same as Chip Foose or Richard Rawlings? Do we always agree? No. Respect? Yes.

And, Burger has often identified those who are prone to 'too tight of a sphincter muscle'. He's not 'all wrong'... JMHO


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 03:49 pm:

These posts are well said and well-considered.

There is another aspect of documenting the chronology of changes through production, and that is to be functionally helpful when it is not possible to retro-fit later components into earlier cars.

In the greater scheme of things, this first Model T century is rather early in the game . . . I do think there's an element of responsibility for the Model T owner to be aware of the little bit of history he's preserving. While there's plenty of room for the inventive types to re-make the Model T in their own image of mechanical "improvements", and the "decorator types" to replace Henry's "uniform black" with rainbow colors to and have fun with their cars, no one should have to be apologetic in their quest to keep their cars as near as possible to what they were when new, much less be insulted for that.

After all, no matter what our impulses to change things may be, don't we love Model Ts because of what they are ?? If they are all changed too much, and there are no "original examples" left, then what have they become, other than a vehicle that is no longer fully practical to drive on modern roads ?

Maybe part of Burger's animosity stems from unhappy encounters I've occasionally witnessed when folks showing and competing become so intense and Draconian about their "rules" they no longer seem able to remain pleasant and comradely..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 04:10 pm:

I think Rich has explained Burger's point of reference well. Yes, Burger is "opinionated" but so are most of the rest of us, me included! I do think looking at the "Judging Guidelines " as more of an "Authenticity Guidelines" is probably a better description of there intended use. Barney, my '25 is pretty much "unmolested" except for a strange replacement of the windshield with a much earlier one, so it serves well as it's own "authenticity guideline" but Margaret, my '16 (built in '15) touring was subjected to "improvements" such as brass headlight rims and sidelight tops, which at the time (1960s) was considered "correct." Now we know they aren't! So, in putting her back together (a process that is now taking a decade longer than I'd planned), the guidelines are invaluable.
Barney will probably always be much as Burger's TT, just a well-used example of a T. Margaret, on the other hand will be (for a while at least) a pristine "like-new" T until she develops some "character." And if I don't step away from this #@#!!! computer, neither of them will be anything!
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Alexander in Albion, Maine on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 06:53 pm:

Seems to me the operative word is " guidelines."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 08:41 pm:

For what it's worth ... in my other hobby, military vehicles, the national MVPA judging standards have two classes. Factory class and motor pool class. The factory class is that your vehicle should be as it was on the day it left the factory on it's DOD. Same equiptment, same finish, same options, etc.
The other class is much more forgiving but still following what would have been available during the period of use for your vehicle by the military motor maintainance groups. Replacement engines, different finishes, field mods, etc.

Sounds like the T hobby has the factory class only and what Bubba did with it after it left the factory was "incorrect".

I do my vehicles to represent the "spirit" of the species. 99 perecent of the general public don't know what is correct or incorrect. Just what looks good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 12:33 am:

I think the hobby has lots of room for both extremes, and a whole lot of shades of gray in between (old expression, not the modern take on it). By the way, Burger is NOT an extremist on either end of that spectrum. He is a fine and opinionated "middle of the road".

And although I have never been a real "car show" guy, I would like to take this opportunity to thank Russ Furstnow for the many wonderful things he has done for all our benefit, and the betterment of our hobby. This includes research he has done, volunteering as club director, tour planning, and the "judging" guidelines (although I too think "restoration" guidelines may be more appropriate). He truly is one of the great ones!
Without the many contributions of Russ F and a couple hundred others like him? We would not know nearly as much about our beloved model T Fords as we do. Nor would we have so many wonderful venues to share them with each other, and strangers.
Wayne Sheldon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 01:48 am:

Burger's animosity is directed at competitive asshats who turn a fun hobby
into a snobfest of anal retentive schlurps with a holier-than-thou attitude towards
anything but what THEY deem as "factory original" telling others how "unworthy"
they or their cars are. If that shoe fits, wear it. I hold nothing but contempt for
that crowd.

However, if you just like to know what is factory correct and lack the BS
and competitive bravado, then don't go getting all butt hurt looking for an
insult. I have yet to meet anyone into lowly Model T's that fits the bill. But
if you'd like a primer course on what those guys look like, spend a little time
with the Corvette crowd, or perhaps the 300 Club. You'll know exactly what
I am talking about.

Kudos to hobby leaders like Russ, Trent, Kim, and many others who are walking
encyclopedias on these cars we love. Without that basis of knowledge we'd all
be much poorer for our hobby. However, their is a BIG difference between seeking
and having that knowledge and being an arrogant D-B toward others because
their car is deemed "incorrect". It is to THOSE latter people that I speak.

As for you, Gary Schreiber, .... do you offer ANYTHING to this forum besides
meaningless or negative comments ? Any tech info ? Work advice ? Historical
intel ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison - Rice, Minnesota on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 02:07 am:

Wayne, I agree with what your saying. Burger has an opinion and he likes to share it. Sometimes I respect his opinion and sometimes I wonder why he's not locked up in a rubber room being fed with a sling shot. But in the end, I like Burger.

Sure he's full of crap! Sure he should be beaten with a rubber hose! Sure he's obtrusive and has a way of grating on your nerves but, he's not totally un-likeable!

He's got a T. And he's, well he's... well hey there's other things about him that might be good. I'll bet he doesn't beat his dog; much. And I've never heard any complaints about his cruelty to old people and small children.

He's a veteran!!!! Good enough for me.

Burger, I feel good about myself now that I've defended you're values here on the forum! I really told 'em.

I feel everybody's got some positive attributes.

It's like I once told my ex-Mother in Law, "you might be ugly but by God you're stupid too."

I'm here for ya Burger! :-) :-) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 02:33 am:

I think this group gets along better than any forum group I know on the internet--heck they get along better than folks in my church do!!
:-)
I have a "bucket list" of folks I hope to get to meet, Rich Eagle, and Burger are on that list (you've been warned!), as are others, and then there's some I HAVE met; Larry Smith, Les VonNordheim, Erik (and his Dad)Barrett, Wayne Sheldon, Terry Horlick amongst a few--and I even got to get together with Ralph Ricks (miss him!).
So, a blast on the exhaust whistle to y'all!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 08:12 am:

Burger, I post what knowledge I have to share if someone hasn't already beat me to it. Offer kudos to jobs well done, comment positively on others cars. You on the other hand mostly post insults towards other T owners.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 08:40 am:

Complaining about snobs while telling everyone how they're enjoying their hobby wrong and how your way is the only right way enjoy it...

...seems kind of snobbish to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 10:21 am:

Burger, you rant endlessly on a Model T forum about this unnamed crowd of "holier-than-thou's" that are presumably amongst our ranks and then backpedal by saying that you haven't met anyone in the Model T world that fits that bill. Kind of cancels out the point of your own oft-repeated rant, doesn't it?

If you take issue with the likes of the Corvette crowd, than go crap in their sandbox.

You're right that Russ, Trent, and Kim are perfect examples of helpful purists. I could add another two-dozen stand-up purist Model T'ers to that list, but couldn't add any that meet your broad brush definition of one.

I think the behavior you have repeatedly exhibited here is termed "projection".

Thanks to those that put a lot of time and effort into the revised Guidelines. I think it's safe to say that none of us are going to commit assault by beating non-purists over the head with them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 10:42 am:

Can we make this thread become a bit more civil and talk about politics?








By the way I am waiting for Burger to stop holding back and tell us his real opinion. :-)


I find the conversations here informative, funny, and helpful.
99% of the guys that post on (and read) the forum are great
- for those that may try to jump to conclusions Burger is part of the 99% not 1%


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 10:48 am:

I was asked to judge the '23-25 Model T's on the Finger Lakes Tour last year. It's a lot of work! Of course this was my first time, and I suppose if I did it more often I would improve. It's a hell of a lot more work to judge someone else's car than my own. At any rate it was a good experience for me. The only thing I regret is that I wasn't able to look at all of the other fine cars that were there that day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 11:02 am:

I have judged in several Mopar shows over the years. I have found that the workload is much more manageable if the show uses drive-through judging (the cars come to the judges instead of the judges having to trudge around the grounds looking for the cars). Another advantage of drive-through judging is that those who don't want to have their cars judged just stay parked and don't get in the judging line. Another way to handle it is to have a separate parking area for cars that want to be judged. The disadvantage of this is that some folks may not be able to park next to their non-judged buddies.

Judging is also faster and easier when you can split it up amongst a team of judges, each of whom concentrates on one aspect of each car. Time saved during judging is somewhat offset by the time required to total up each judge's score for each car to get a total score, however.

Another trick I learned is to have a reserve box of trophies handy in case someone comes stomping up after the show complaining that they didn't get a trophy - You can then say, "golly, you're right sir, we must have miscounted, here is your trophy" and reach into the reserve box and give them a trophy. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 11:10 am:

LOL gets thrown around a lot when things are only mildly amusing. Thanks to Mike Garrison for starting my day with a real LOL.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 11:16 am:

Hmmmm .... Thanks for the "support", Garrison ! :-)

Seriously, ... for those that read my "rant" posts and wish to own them
as personal insults, I would submit that very few in the T community have
the D-B creds to really claim them.

Let me 'splain that just as there is an established clique of persons and
paradigm that think old cars are for purist/perfectionist restoration and all
else is deplorable folly by fools and other n'er-do-wells, there also exists
group of us, less organized, that see the competitive nature of such a para-
-digm as destructive toward the hobby we love, and some of us will give
pushback when the monster rears its head.

That said, I think more of those reading my pushback as personal attacks
are just going around looking for a hurt feeling than actually being the type
of player I am actually giving pushback to. And in all reality, my pushback
is not really intended to be something personal, but rather, CONCEPTUAL,
regarding how we see our hobby .... as something done just for fun, or
something highly competitive. I know THAT concept will go over some
people's heads, as some cannot see the fun in anything unless IT IS comp-
-etitive !

Unless, of course, it involves an anklebiter type guy like Gary Schreiber,
who seems to have missed the MANY posts I have made about technical
information, specifically in the sparsely represented quarter that is TT tech.
And to Gary, you're damned straight I am talking right at you, just as you
call out my name on anything that might hurt your tender little feelings. I
do not mince words. I thank my Gunnys for that blessing, and I have no
use for mealy-mouthed little worms that lack the spine to not just speak
in clear and direct coms. If you take issue with my coms style, feel free to
scroll past my posts, or enjoy what you may upon making your own comments.
I do not follow your posts to nip at your heels. I have better things to do.

Now, let's get back to having some #@! fun ! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 11:33 am:

I read virtually all the threads Burger and the posts contained. In honesty I think you can get a pat on the back for possibly 6 technical assists, at most. Anklebiter, hardly. The only negative posts I have ever made are in reply to your tirades. And sorry, my feelings aren't hurt so you can't put that feather in your cap either. Admittedly some (very few) of your posts are amusing but the rest are just hateful comments. So as you suggest, I'll scroll past your posts except for the ones you made in this thread. Also as I understand it, you aren't a veteran as Mike stated, only a paid sub contractor. You have a good day too :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marv Konrad (Green Bay Area) on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 02:17 pm:

'Boys, boys, boys!'
As was mentioned earlier: "those who are prone to too tight of a sphincter muscle" maybe could do the 'look in the mirror thing'.... Our T's are for OUR OWN ENJOYMENT first, (nobody else owns our's), with whatever we use, and however we choose to put them together! ANYONE ELSE may deserve receiving their 'Attitude & Participation' trophy. We will judge our own work, concede to our ultimate Judge, and realize we're not all the same, are we?
Tech advice and history will always be helpful, even if we choose not to use them. Perhaps we might even manage a smile? :-)
After all, LIFE is the REAL lesson to be learned.
Happy Easter to all!
Marv


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 02:23 pm:

Normally I would just let this go and die a merciful death. Gary and Burger are at odds with each other and I think it's time to call a truce.
I think Gary was doing pretty good at that in his post above until his next-to-the-last sentence. If one puts his life on the line for this country either here or abroad, it doesn't matter if he or she is in the service or is a civilian, they still deserve our respect. Never diminish that dedication.
Now let's get back to Model Ts or something else fun, like filing our taxes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marv Konrad (Green Bay Area) on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 02:26 pm:

-David-
"That's too tacksing!"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 03:14 pm:

David, Good point!
Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 04:06 pm:

I think Burger and Gary can probably settle this without our, (and my), help.

And to Marv, yes, happy Easter to you and to all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 07:31 pm:

Tsk tsk. 'nough said about some of that stuff.
I always look forward to Gary S's postings. But then, I have been around long enough to remember when Gary S lived in this country, and had a model T!
I will also say, even though I have not met him face to face, I like Burger. For his well grounded view of what is important in life, and being a bit like me, outspoken and opinionated.


As for how close some of us are to the "room with the rubber wallpaper"?

I can actually say that I have been IN that room a few times.
Of course, it was as a contractor working on the communication systems in the buildings.

Uh huh.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 11:41 pm:

Back to the original subject: I like Jerry's suggestion that Restoration Guidelines would be a better name. I doubt that I'll ever have a car judged, but the guidelines are helpful in deciding what belongs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 12:07 am:

Spot on, Steve, ... and by extension, Jerry. Like most of you, I like to
know what is "correct" or "period", so I put my pig together relatively
"correct". It is the JUDGING part of the discussion that breeds competition,
and for some, an uppity arrogance. To this, I have a problem.

Gary ~ once again you choose to make this personal. I learn, I help, and
above all, I went and walked the walk. I held E-7 responsibility and made E-4
pay, just like a Corporal. I will get no retirement, no VA services, nor any other
Vet privileges. The IED's, rockets, and small arms fire knew no difference
between me and my men and those beside us in uniform. I took the same risks
and did so voluntarily because some things matter in life. Sorry I missed the
enlistment cut-off age and went to illigitimately as to not count in your book.
Care to share with the group your service record and all the life threatening
sacrifices you made for your country ?

Oh yeah, and I was given a letter of commendation by the USMC for going
above and beyond. You ?

Any more smart comments, Private Pyle ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 01:26 am:

Wayne,
Riiiggghttt, you were working on the "communications systems." wink wink!!
Reminds me of a cartoon showing a moving van unloading at the new house, "Padded Movers" is on the side. Neighborhood kid tells the new kid, "Wow, they took my piano teacher away in a truck just like that!"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 09:54 am:

No service Burger; 4f due to spinal fusing after crashing my 70 HD FX. However I do honor, thank and respect all veterans. I have and will continue to scroll past your posts when your replies have nothing to do with the OP's question or comment which is quite frequently. When you're outright insulting if others don't enjoy the hobby per your standards, I will comment. So maybe we can come to an agreement. Let's say you post your opinion on how everyone should enjoy their cars like every other month. That way folks who enjoy the hobby their way don't have to read paragraphs of your "view" and newbies will still get to understand how they should have fun with their hobby cars. Win-win. Either case, you have a great day Burger :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 12:05 pm:

So, ... you could have gone, just as I did. But you chose to leave
it to others. Roger that.

If you also CHOOSE to own non-personal commentary of mine as
personal insults, that is also a choice, Amigo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 01:05 pm:

Stolen Valor. Lowest of the low.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 05:43 pm:

Tim, not sure if you understand the stolen valor act so I'll include a link. Nothing I could EVER be accused of, sorry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Valor_Act_of_2013


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim moore, "Island City" MI on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 08:22 pm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKYz2M6zoII


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 09:11 pm:

Tim, that sums it up perfectly!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Morsher on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 09:21 pm:

I understand the law re/ stolen valor, but I've also been around a long time. I've never witnessed this blatant military speak/ writing from anyone before, and I've known veterans all my life. From a civilian, I think it is very disrespectful, and is far too close to going over the stolen valor line that a normal person should go, and very troubling. At 60 years old, you would think just once I would have come across this in my daily life. If you were not in the military, you have no right to act like it, and more troubling is to talk or write like it. I don't care if you were a contractor , or a janitor or a mercenary, it wasn't the military. Any comparison is very troubling to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 09:47 pm:

One more to add.

Never pay the asking price for any part you buy, even if you need it badly right now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 11:18 pm:

Tim Morsher - your observations and comments are SPOT ON. Thank you for making them.

-Ron (21 years United States Army, 3 combat tours, 70% disabled veteran)

(Message edited by Conversiont on April 14, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 09:47 am:

Aw what the heck....my two bits:

I've never had the desire to enter one of my antique cars in a contest (other than a drag race) and honestly don't understand the desire to have an old car judged.

But, some people do.

And, if those people have a club where originality will be judged, then there needs to be a set of guidelines by which said cars are judged.

A funny little side note: about 15 years ago, I had a REALLY nice 49 Ford Club Coupe with a hopped up/dressed up flathead (I had more money in the flatty alone than most of us have in our entire Model T's). I took it to a charity car show on a Saturday and the thing won a dern award. I don't like car trophies....don't understand them...don't know why anyone would want a $5 piece of plastic like that. Other award winners were very proud of there's as they were given them and when my name was called, I thanked them then politely refused it. After the "ceremony" I must've had half the crowd come up to me and ask me why I or anyone would turn down such a high honor...they just couldn't comprehend it.

Like I said, I just don't get it. But I know others do.

I'm the current president of the '54 Ford Club of America and our club members really like to have awards at our conventions. Because I dislike the el-cheapo plastic trophies, I make up a varnished wooden plaque with a high quality reproduction hood emblem and engraved name plate. This is something that looks good on an office wall. They've been very well received.



(Message edited by rustyfords on April 15, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison - Rice, Minnesota on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 09:51 am:

I'm a combat veteran. I lived in the jungles of Vietnam. I was sprayed with agent orange, had a case of immersion foot and dysentery along with the rest of my unit. We got hit with mortars and rockets, RPG's and small arms fire.

Be very careful how you define veteran. Anyone caught up in a combat Area of Operations when the shit hits the fan becomes a veteran real quick. Try to convince a mamason and her babies she isn't a veteran when she's in the center of an LZ and the shits coming down. They may not be military veterans but damn it they're combat veterans.

I believe Burger saw the same combat situations the Marines, he was dug in with, saw. He probably ate Marine food and wore marine utilities. He was as at risk in a war zone as the Marines. IED's, RPG's and small arms fire don't discriminate and only choose military personal. The sun doesn't make it cooler for civilian contractors.

Burger isn't a military combat veteran, but he may very well be a combat veteran. We can each define what a veteran is in our own way. Stolen valor involves lying about military service and commendation. It doesn't define exposure to combat.

-Mike (19 months United States Army, 1 combat tour, 100% disabled veteran, 46 years later still dealing with the effects of combat)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 01:02 am:

As a Marine veteran, I'm disgusted by the splitting of hairs here on what does and doesn't constitute the "proper" definition of veteran. Burger went, and others didn't. Whether it was in uniform or not, it's more than a lot of people are willing to do. Don't think that just because you did or didn't wear the uniform that you rate to decide who is or isn't in one group or the other. He served his country, albeit not as a sworn-in member of our armed services. It's not like the Boy Scouts, where after so many merit badges you move up from Webelo to Cub Scout.

And before you get mad, I was never a Boy Scout, so I don't know how the merit badges and such work. Just using it as a metaphor (Simile? I can't keep that stuff straight either.) for how ridiculous this tangent has gotten.

As for the "JUDGING" guidelines, I agree that they are a misnomer. Just because you follow them doesn't mean you want your vehicle judged, nor does it mean your vehicle has to be judged at any show you go to. It just means you want your vehicle to be assembled to a set of certain criteria that many accept to be the factory correct way to assemble them. We all know that not every car that ran down that assembly line was exactly up to snuff, according to the guidelines.

I had a professor in college that explained it to me thus: On Mondays, some corners were cut because the employees were probably still hungover from spending their whole week's pay in the bars. On Fridays, corners were cut because they wanted to get the job done as fast as possible because they had a paycheck to spend in the bars. We are striving to build the Tuesday-Wednesday-Thursday cars, because those would have been built to the closest adherence to factory specs.

My favorite award at a car show is the People's Choice, because that's the car most people (or at least the ones who cared enough to vote) thought was the most interesting car at the show. Doesn't matter if the car was 100% the way it was originally designed or built. It just means that car was the most popular with whoever was at the show that day. Until you have several People's Choice awards under your trunk lid, you're just chasing something the general public couldn't care less about. The only ones who care about factory authenticity when it comes to judging are the ones who probably don't drive their cars for fear of breaking something.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera in the U.P. of MI. on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 02:30 pm:

Keeping this auto related...

Not sure of my service..... Joined the USAF to get away from home (Arlington, Va) and went to Andrews AFB after basic (22 miles from home)and was there for the next three and a half years, through 1972 working mostly on T-39 Saberliners. Worked with mostly civilians and hardly ever felt like I was in the service. Except for payday... then I knew I worked for Uncle Sam! Ha Ha Ha. Had fun, learned a lot. Got married to my best friend. Best thing I ever did. Model T's was the next best thing!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marv Konrad (Green Bay Area) on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 05:50 pm:

People's Choice, Mayor's Choice, Best-of-Show, Best Ford, Best...-Whatever'...
And GUESS WHAT??? They've ALL been real good at gathering DUST!
Our human nature causes us to desire being liked, recognized, and appreciated. Ego not necessary! JMHO, but vehicles are much more enjoyable when they're being worked on or driven; to hear horns honk and seeing 'thumbs up' in approval, (or maybe not); and feel the breeze through my own now non-existent hair! Yet, I am really the judge of JUST my own vehicles, even if its while observing "Uncle Jed's" or others.... 'Life' is too short to not be enjoyed!! BTW - My car is MY CAR! (It is NOT yours nor anyone else's.) That still doesn't mean I can impose my knowledge on you, or limit the willingness of learning from you. To share knowledge in a positive manner (when asked) is usually enjoyable.

"Guide" lines are just that from my perspective. How we choose to 'gather OUR dust' will determine OUR path for those guidelines and OUR OWN use. If someone chooses to 'conform', it is THEIR choice, or maybe could be my own. It really IS up to the individual to make their own choices, isn't it?

My apologies if this seems like a rant.... Perhaps just suffering effects of my own sphincter muscle getting too tight? :-)

 "Uncle Jed's"All dusty...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 06:09 pm:

Where can I buy the new edition of the judging guidelines?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 06:17 pm:

I answered my own question.

http://modeltfordclubinternationalinc.mysimplestore.com/products/judging-guideli nes-7th-edition

I read some negative comments about the poor quality of the photos in the sixth edition. Has this been resolved in the 7th edition?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 08:10 pm:

Yes, I've got a copy and the photos have been digitally enhanced in the 7th Edition.
Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 08:22 pm:

Back in the early 1960's when the old car clubs were getting started, I had a 1931 Model A Phaeton. We drove it all the way from San Diego to San Francisco. There was a national meet of the Model A Ford Club of America. There were A's which left New York City and as they drove across the country other A's would join them until we had about 300 which arrived at San Francisco.

One day we were parked in Golden Gate Park for a show. The cars were judged. Some cars had all the sand pits ground off the engine and polished. They were restored beyond the original specifications. Tires still had the mold marks not driven on. Etc.

All the cars which won prizes were from nearby areas and had been trailered in to the event. The only one driven to the show which received a reward for the car driven farthest came from Florida.

This judging, in my opinion only showed how much money someone could pay for professional work and detail. Those who took great pride in their own work were excluded. I decided at that time, I would not participate in a contest in which the cars were judged. I enjoy doing my own work too much and driving the car wherever I want to go for that kind of contest.

To each his own. I have no problems with those who enjoy the contest, but count me out.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 09:19 pm:

Norm,

You summed up my sentiments perfectly. Judging turns a friendly,
fun hobby into something competitive, which breeds trouble and
can ruin a good thing.

To each their own. If someone likes their hobby through a prism
of competition, so be it. I only offer up an alternative because, as
you mentioned, in the early days, that WAS the car scene. The
paradigm remains a dominant factor in the car scene. I was 20
years into old cars before it occurred to me there was another way.
No one ever told me to think about it differently. I wish someone
had. It is for that reason I speak up. Noobies should understand
that there are other options besides rigorous restoration standards
and never measuring up to guys with unlimited budgets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Perkins / St. Croix Valley Mn on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 09:32 pm:

Norm Kling........AMEN!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Clary on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 09:56 pm:

At the MTFCI tours the cars are judged against the guidelines, not each other. It is possible that everyone could bring home the gold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 10:15 pm:

Competition improves the breed.

Judging in the MTFCI isn't a popularity contest, it's scoring against what is known to be correct and original for your car.

There is absolutely no reason for any negativity towards it. It's optional, it's not based on the subjective whims of the opinions of others, and your score is not effected by any car but your own.

If you don't like it, enjoy the 5 days of touring without getting a score sheet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 10:40 pm:

Make your T to suite your tastes and enjoy and drive it there's not one on every corner. Plenty of forum members have served in many capacities and we appreciate everyone's service so we have the freedoms to do the things that make use Americans. Thanks to everyone who's has served...


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