Rarest of the rare, pretty close to the holy grail of carbs!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Rarest of the rare, pretty close to the holy grail of carbs!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 12:14 am:

Kingston 6 Ball -- used only on a few very early T's and by some accounts on the 10 Torpedo.

I bought this from a guy who said he bought it at a garage sale 40 or 50 years ago, never did know what it fit. Now he knows.










Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 03:34 am:

Thank you Stan H! I do enjoy seeing these rare and special carburetors.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 08:08 am:

Gorgemous!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 09:55 am:

Looks great Stan...... Have a great Easter weekend,
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Blake, Kansas City on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 10:38 am:

Ok, newbie question here.

I've seen 5 ball Kingstons for sale, and now thanks to Stans excellent pictures, I'm seeing the inside of a 6 ball, which I assume is very similar to the 5 ball except of course the number of balls. Now that I've seen the inside, I'm left wondering, how do they work?

I've rebuilt everything from a Holley for a T, to Strombergs for a Triumph TR6, to a Quadrajet for a Buick, but I've never seen anything quite like this. Please someone, enlighten me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 10:51 am:

I have heard of a 7 ball. The 7th ball works with the float


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Bennett on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 10:58 am:

The "six-ball" and other Kingstons of the time were "air valve" carburetors. There is a small passage for air through the carburetor that is open all the time. As demand for more air increases, the balls raise from their seats and allow more air through the carburetor. If the throttle is opened rapidly, this allows only the amount of air through the carb that the engine will accept. If too much air is allowed through the carburetor all at once, you experience a hesitation or "bog" of the engine until the demand for the engine matches the air flow through the carburetor. By metering the air flow the theory is to prevent the hesitation. Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Blake, Kansas City on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 11:16 am:

Thank you William,

So the flowerey looking thing with six petals keeps the balls from being sucked into the engine, right? And the balls have a bit of a throttling effect, depending on engine vacuum? Or would it be airflow? Or maybe both.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 11:16 am:

That's about it. The air valve was a very common idea used in a lot of carbs. The big problem with carburetion is that it needs to be able to vary the mixture at various engine speeds and demands. The challenge is to get the correct mixture for:

A. Starting

B. Low speed

C. High speed

D. Acceleration from low speed to high speed.

E. Additional fuel for higher load demands with return to less fuel for lighter load demands.

The most common air valves work with a spring; Kingston and a few others used weighted balls being pulled off seats by the air flow through the venturi to accomplish the necessary results. As part of that, they have a small venturi, the additional air needed is sourced by the balls opening a passage.

The invention of the idle circuit and choke circuits pretty much eliminated the use of the ball type carbs.

This would have been a very expensive carb to produce and time consuming to machine. I have not put it on an engine since I don't want to contaminate or remove the float finish. Maybe someday I will have time to do all that but not now.

My guess is that it will sell to somebody's collection before I ever have time to do any more with it. All I did to it was clean it in my ultrasonic cleaners.

Off to the shop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 11:19 am:

The first thing you have to learn about carburetor theory is that there is nothing called vacuum. It is air pressure differential between the chamber being filled with gaseous mixture and atmospheric pressure outside that chamber. The difference in pressure is what causes the air flow through the carburetor and into the engine.

There are thousands of pages of theory and physics as to why all this works but I have at least 50 carburetors waiting for me in the shop and I am trying to take Easter Sunday off so here I go.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 11:21 am:

It is a treat to see it.
Thanks
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 11:24 am:

looks like overland used the same carb but up draft and screw on, in 1911 mod 49. charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dale w on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 11:28 am:

Stan,
Great. And I've been syncing carbs with a vacuum gauge all these years...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Blake, Kansas City on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 12:15 pm:

Yes Stan, thanks for the reminder. Vacuum is nothing more than pressure at something less than atmo!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 01:26 pm:

If you read the carburetor theory and technology books they do not speak of vacuum. They speak of negative pressure differential.

Technically, air is not "sucked" into anything. It is forced in due to the reduction in pressure in a chamber. The air then flows from the higher pressure area outside the chamber to the lesser pressure area inside the chamber. In my opinion, it does make it much easier to understand how all those circuits and passages work.

Vacuum is a common term used by many people including technical writers, etc., etc. Carburetor theorists speak of pressure differential. IE: negative pressure differential.

This started a whole big spitting match a couple years ago when I was trying to explain how a venturi works. Some know it all in Australia who must have nothing else to do posted a high school textbook paragraph to prove me wrong and flamed me for a couple weeks on the forum.

So... I seldom post anything much about carburetors, operational theory, etc. and just show a cool photo now and then. I just figure everybody else can figure out how they work on their own.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dale w on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 03:04 pm:

Stan, I take it back.
I think we are talking past each other using technical and common terminology.

Hopefully we can agree that a piston on the downward intake stroke increases the volume of the cylinder above the retreating piston creating a vacuum, or a "Negative pressure differential"- were just using different terms to describe the same phenomenon and end result.
Either way, we both want to cram as much air/fuel mix into that chamber as quickly and as efficiently as possible!

And I must add that I've worked on several Amal, SU and Webber carburettors and can confirm that many of those designs do indeed suck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 03:32 pm:

Stan, you are very correct! While there is such a thing as a generalized theory and explanation of "how things work"? Those "theories" are usually somewhat less than accurate. The word "vacuum" is overused, and usually not truly correctly used. Unfortunately, the way the English language has developed over centuries, incorrect usage becomes common usage, and therefore accepted as correct, even in places that it should not be.
To really learn. To really understand, many things, one MUST recognize the difference between "general explanations" and "practical theory".
My dad was a true electrical/electronic genius". Understanding the real "how" and "what" of things worked made all the difference in the world. I was NEVER the electrical whiz that he was. I always enjoyed (and to this day miss) his explanations of all things electrical and basic physics.
You, Stan H, remind me of him.

Now, get out there and enjoy Easter with that family of yours!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Coco - Winchester Va. on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 03:50 pm:

As a side note on "rare" carburetor, here's the original carb that came with a 1903 Pierce 6 HP engine I recently acquired.

The Holley Brothers went to France in 1901 and acquired the rights to manufacture the Longuemare carburetor, an advanced design for the time. This is a Holley Brothers Longuemare, very scarce...though not very pretty right now!

The Holley Brothers actually built a car of their own for a while, but once they partnered with Henry Ford, their only business became carbs...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 08:24 pm:

That's a cool carburetor. I think they worked quite well compared to others of the time. A lot of carbs were built that were very close to that design so they must have been the one to emulate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dale w on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 01:24 pm:

Hey Stan,
SLIGHTLY OT, but I just got back from the hardware store where I went to get a drive belt for our Hoover "negative pressure differential" cleaner.
Unfortunately, they had to order it and it will take six weeks, just like my request for some "Dapper Dan" pomade....

Have a great weekend, whatever you do or dont celebrate!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 02:05 pm:

Well, I will continue to study carburetion theory and design, rebuild carburetors, try to understand how they work and will continue to believe that the pressure outside the carburetor is what moves the air and fuel through the circuits and gasification processes to allow it to burn in the cylinder. I don't care what anybody else calls the process or how they believe they work.

Have a good weekend. I will be spending mine in the shop working on carburetors from around the world from a 1904 Knox to a 1920's something Peter Pirch fire truck in Norway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 02:57 pm:

Stan, Peter Pirsch Fire Apparatus was made right here in Kenosha, WI, and I'm very familiar with them. My brother worked for them for several years as a draftsman / designer in the 1970's.

If this truck still has the Pirsch data plate on it, I can likely find information on it and maybe a factory pre-shipment picture of the finished truck. This data plate is probably on the back side of the firewall on the right side and will have the Pirsch serial number on it & that's what I need. If it's not based on a Ford chassis, then it probably has a Waukesha engine in it.

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 04:57 pm:

I dunno what it is, Keith, I just know they need the carb and I'm wearing out for this week. Think I'll work till about 11:30 tonight and take the rest of the day off.

I'll let them know when I send the carb.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 05:48 pm:

Sounds good Stan.

Thanks, Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Garrison - Rice, Minnesota on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 06:13 pm:

Stan, that Kingston six ball is another piece of jewelry. I can't help but think that at some point I'm going to be out and about someday and come across something so rare. I believe I'd shine it up and display it too.

Regarding your discussion " negative pressure differential". Suddenly I'm starting to consider atmospheric pressure and "positional" differences in the shapes and locations of weather front and the effects the differences have. This results with the thought that what happens through the valves, intake and cylinders in the engine is nothing more then a type of violent storm in a restricted environment.

Okay, enough of the twilight zone stuff. My purpose was to tell you the carburetor is a thing of beauty. Have a great Easter with your family and God bless.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 06:35 pm:

Stan,.....I think ya' ought to give it heck for another half hour or so,.....'till about 12:05am, and THEN take the rest of the day off!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 07:21 pm:

David, that is a real cool carb! Holley was in Bradford, PA at that time and shortly after moved to Detroit.
On the subject of the 7 ball Kingston, I think it was experimental or very limited production. I have only known of 2 of them. Anyone else have one?


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