Paint for early bodies?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Paint for early bodies?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Barlow on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 12:21 am:

I am building an all new 1911 touring body and will need to primer the wood and metal soon. What type of primer sealer, primer surfaces, and paint do you use on a body with both metal and wood?
Does any one have a 1911 ford PPG blue paint formula handy?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gitts - Ferndale, WA on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 01:12 am:

For the metal parts:

Seal w/ DP90LF which is a black etching sealer. Don't need it on the wood.

Prime: both wood and metal: Can use a good urethane primer, such as U-POL 4:1 primer (half price of PPG K-36 and same high build characteristics)

Use DT870 thinner for sealer, primer and if using this DBC system, thin base color with DT870 1:1

After final sanding- seal again with black sealer,as you want a black base before applying the blue.

Ford Midnight Blue Formula (Deltron - Base/Clear)
Mercedes-Benz #12879 (DBC code number)

Quart formula;

Pour/base # Color Parts Comulative

1: DMD646 Weak White 58.8 58.8
2: DMD 1675 Blue 427.6 486.4
3: DMD 1683 Black 180.4 666.8
4: DMD 614 Blue 47.4 714.2
5: DBX 1689 Clear-base Conv. 292.8 1007.0

(Forum won't let me space out columns, so separate the numbers, so you can see both how many units for each pour along with the comulative parts)

If you use this base/clear system, top coat with Deltron 4000 clear. Don't need to reduce w/any thinner. If painting in hot temp, can reduce 4:1:1 with DT885, which is a slow thinner.

I don't have the formula for PPG Concept (single stage) and not sure if all the toners for Concept are available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 01:56 am:

Mark-
I used Diamont Uno 4635 A Mercedes DB 332 (ca. 1963-1967) Use PPG
Non-Sanding Epoxy Primer
Pint: amít (g) acc color tint DP90LF as an undercoat
SC01 44.8 44.8 Base
SC10 70.8 115.6 Clear
SC46 41.8 157.4 Green shade Phthalo blue
SC25 87.0 244.4 Carbon black
SC54 226.1 470.5 Blue shade Phthalo green
SC99 7.2 477.7 low strength white.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 02:06 am:

Mark-
I used Diamont Uno 4635 A Mercedes DB 332 (ca. 1963-1967)
Use PPG Non-Sanding Epoxy Primer
Pint: amít (g) acc color tint DP90LF as an undercoat
SC01 44.8 44.8 Base
SC10 70.8 115.6 Clear
SC46 41.8 157.4 Green shade Phthalo blue
SC25 87.0 244.4 Carbon black
SC54 226.1 470.5 Blue shade Phthalo green
SC99 7.2 477.7 low strength white.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Barlow on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 09:28 am:

Thank you very much
I never thought I could get help that specific
Incredible


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By King Martin on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 11:05 pm:

I used west systems epoxy to seal the wood. The epoxy brushes on smooth, sands nice and accepts paint well. Once painted you won't believe it's wood. My firewall and wooden trunk are glassy smooth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gitts - Ferndale, WA on Friday, April 14, 2017 - 11:27 pm:

You can use West systems or any other wood sealer, but if using urethane primer, it is unnecessary, as the primer will seal and lock onto the wood.

On other thing, if using DP90LF or other DP non-sanding sealer, I would use the "402" hardner, as it does not require a 20 minute induction time, it can be applied immediately after mixing with the sealer. Also with non-sanding sealers, if you do not apply a top-coat over the sealer, after about 36 hrs, it will require a light sanding.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Wednesday, April 19, 2017 - 06:25 pm:

I plan on using Nason Ful-Cryl single stage acrylic enamel for my topcoat, and I'd like to shoot a black non-sanding sealer under it. I do not know much about sealer compatibility. Can someone explain my options? In general, are epoxy and urethane sealers compatible with the type of top coat I plan on shooting? I've already got my top coat and am happy with the color, but I'm shooting over a medium green and I want to lay down a dark gray or black sealer first.

I'm trying to locate DP90LF without any success in my area. Is this still a current product? I'll be driving from CA to Kentucky in July, then up to Michigan and back to CA, so I can pick up what I need if I know where to get it (and what to get...)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gitts - Ferndale, WA on Wednesday, April 19, 2017 - 08:41 pm:

I believe you can top coat over the epoxy sealer, just make sure it's tacked off and dry prior to doing so. I don't use much acrylic enamel, so double check with your Nason jobber.

PPG's DP90LF (#90= black) is currently available, though it's a solvent base product, so it may not be available in California, as your state primarily requires water-borne products, which requires a completely different spraying set up. If you pick up the DP sealer elsewhere, use #402 hardner (you can spray immediately- #401 hardner requires a 20 minute induction time after mixing and prior to spraying) and best all around thinner would be DT 870 or compatible. Mixing ratio for DP would be 2 parts sealer- 1 part hardner- 1 part reducer. You should be able to go to PPG's website and down load the tech sheets for it, which will give all mixing and application information.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Wednesday, April 19, 2017 - 09:02 pm:

Not to nit pick, but my product sheet for DPLF says the ratio for making sealer is 2:1:0.5 (1/2 part) with the latter being the DT reducer. A full (1) part would make for a very thin mix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Barlow on Wednesday, April 19, 2017 - 09:42 pm:

Gary
DP 90 OF might still be available in San Diego county, it was not sold anymore in Orange county or riverside county
But like Les said you can most likely get it out of state, but they can't ship it to you.
You might wind up in the cell next to the guy that tore off the mattress tags if you get caught spraying it in CA.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Wednesday, April 19, 2017 - 10:36 pm:

Same with the Nason paint I purchased on a different trip :-) I'm good with picking it up along my next trip, I just need to locate it.

I would like to be educated on the different sealers and top coat compatibilities if one of you guys that really knows paint doesn't mind chiming in; it would really help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Gitts - Ferndale, WA on Wednesday, April 19, 2017 - 11:38 pm:

Actually, a full part does not over-reduce it. I spray DP everyday and I apply 2 coats. I use it as the primary etch coat over bare metal or factory E-coats. DP does leave a fine "gritty" surface, but for single stages, there's no issue. For base clear top coats, I actually use Deltron DAS sealer, which is not an etching sealer, but flows out and leaves a glass smooth surface for top coating. It mixes 3-1-0.5, or can go 3-1-1, makes little difference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Wednesday, April 19, 2017 - 11:43 pm:

Gary, if you're dead set on using Nason, you really ought to stay with the same family of products rather than topcoating a PPG primer/sealer with a Nason enamel. Probably wouldn't create an issue, but the whole product line from a single source is designed to work together, particularly if you intend to have them cross-link (that is when you spray sealer then spray the top coat a short time thereafter and they chemically bond rather than letting it cure-out and sanding for a mechanical bond).

I am no longer fluent on Nason products. When duPont took everything and sold it to Axalta, I switched to PPG. I believe you will want to study up on their SelectPrime and SelectSeal products if you're sticking with the Nason topcoat. If anything it will save you from having to hunt down two different paint stores to source the materials you need to smuggle back home!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, April 20, 2017 - 12:04 am:

Les, I'm curious why you reduce DP to that extent? Not looking to argue, just curious. I know it can be used direct to metal, but I've never read that DP has any etching ability.

I've gone back to using PPG's etch prime for most things and then their ECP Envirobase primer (I hate the name but it's an awesome product!) and generally only use DP as a sealer after that. ECP is nice stuff and in the cooler temps during our winter months it still sets up.

Out here in duPont country Variprime, Centari, and other offerings from long ago are missed, but we're lucky that we're not yet a waterborne state. We are, however, surrounded by them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Thursday, April 20, 2017 - 04:32 pm:

Walter;

I do want to cross link, but I have not been able to find a source for the SelectSeal, or a local place to see PPG colors. It's a real catch 22. The unfortunate thing is there are such limited options in CA. I'm thinking I will spray the side of a garbage can and see how it goes. I'd love to stay within one family but it's a real challenge here. It looks like the DP90 works well with the single stage acrylic enamel PPG products, so I think the odds are good it will work..... we'll see! If I have problems I can either let it set up and sand it, or when I'm on my next trip I'll be looking for either a PPG dealer or a place to pick up the SelectSeal.

It was soooo much nicer 25-30 years ago when my local dealer knew about all of this stuff and carried it.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, April 20, 2017 - 07:08 pm:

When you purchase Nason on a trip, from what kind of outfit are you purchasing it? Any dealer that sells that brand paint should be able to sell the primers.

If it's easier to get (and I know PPG stores are easier to find in terms of market share on this side of the country) you could just go exclusively to PPG. As far as their acrylic enamel, my understanding is PPG ceased production of that product line a year or two ago. The closest thing you're going to get is Concept which is their acrylic urethane. I've sprayed a lot of it and like it a lot except for some hard to diagnose solvent pop problems we've had with it. That variable scares me, but I still use it and know better how to deal with it. It's not the easiest stuff to buff, but when it's done right it looks like porcelain. Unfortunately, for the last several years there has been talk that they are going to phase out Concept, too. I'm not even sure if all of the tints are still available. I have a mixing machine, but haven't been using enough product lately to replenish it.

Unless you work in a production body shop, all of this stuff is hard to keep up with. The manufacturers keep bending over to stay compliant with the law and, unfortunately, a lot of the testing winds up being done by the purchaser. The paint manufacturers don't invest in research like they used to and on top of that, aside from big sellers like base/clear, they don't devote as much of their research budget to things like Concept since it's typically a fleet product and only a fraction of their overall sales.


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