TT rear question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: TT rear question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Strickling on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 07:45 am:

So I got a TT rear end and put it on jack stands. I turned the U joint with a wrench and it took about 2 1/2 turns to make the wheel go around once. Is that 5:1? I think it must be but why 2 1/2 and not 5 turns? thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 08:09 am:

Tom,
Yes, that sounds like a 5:1 as long as you were holding the other wheel from turning.

The general rule is to let one wheel turn and then count the number of revolutions of the driveshaft to turn the free wheel two times...as long as yours isn't posi :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Strickling on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 08:36 am:

Thanks Justin.

I reviewed an older post of yours with lots of great photos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 07:11 pm:

If you have the worm gear bearing out of either end,
have a look at the number of starts on the gear:

Six worm starts = 5:1 High Speed/Express gears

Four worm starts = 7:1 Low Speed/Farm gears


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Smith on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 03:37 pm:

Burger has it. Take cover off and nut washer exposing bearing on worm. Flashlight can help count worm flutes if you don't pull bearing. You have to want to peak for grease, water, mess anyway, right?
31-6 teeth is 5.17
29-4 teeth is 7.25

I have two ruckstells that was like scratching a lottery ticket when checking. Lost both times as they were both 7.25.

You sound like you are in good shape if you want TT fast.

Good luck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 04:27 pm:

I am putting a rebuilt Truckstell rear end in my truck now. Stalled out
last night when I could not lay hands on a single 15/16 wrench anywhere
in my arsenal. This rear end is the compilation of 5 different rear ends
to round up all the parts - one for the gears, another for the Ruckstell
and housing, my original unit for the shifter, another for bearings (actually
the thrust bearing came from a 6th rear end), and a 5th one for the aux.
brakes.

I will be creating a thread shortly, documenting the process for those
with TT challenges.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Smith on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 04:51 pm:

Looking forward to the build Burger. I am headed that way with the two I have, though I am a few short if it takes roughly 6 to get one. My two are spooky when I hand turn them so I have little expectation. I like your creeper. Lol as I have the carts to do the same. They are a bit heavy for more than one end at a time. I like the 5:1 so I am still scrounging those gears as I don't care to take them from the stock one under the truck. Good stuff!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Gilham Bellflower Ca. on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 08:03 pm:

Burger, I look forward to your TT rear rebuild pictures. I have 6 TT rears right now ready for me to dive in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 09:23 pm:

I am right at the point of pulling the rear end out. Been taking lots of pix.

I will mention it again in this thread when I post, and do the post as a
separate thread so as not to derail Tom's thread. Or maybe it would be
better just adding it to Tom's ??? They are related and would be easier
to reference later. Opinions ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 10:43 pm:

I am building a TT Ruckstell right now. Haven't done one in years. Everything is HEAVY! This truck came in at 22mph top end. We are putting in high speed gears and a Warford. When it leaves it will be capable of 40 or better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 12:28 am:

I got the rear end out and decided it would be easier to swap over
the brake gear before I stuffed the new one under the truck. The
seals had leaked for eons and turned the innards into a sticky, greasy
mess. I took one side off and cleaned all the parts, put them back
together on the new rear end. I left the other side for reference, but
put it all together without needing to check. I will do the other side
a soon as I can get to it, and then it will be a matter of putting it under
the truck and all bolted in. I am eager to see how it drives. The rebuilt
engine is ready to go and will follow shortly. I will use a Lincoln (rather
than a Warford) and that is the final major step in getting some range
out of this old dog.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 04:24 am:

When I went through the rearend on my TT (the one on my profile picture), I used the axle bearing seals for the inside of the outer bearings that are available from the vendors. As far as I'm concerned, that's a no brainer. Keeps rearend lube and the axle bearing lube seperated. JMHO. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert L. Rogers on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 07:14 am:

Burger, you are a trail blazer! I have four TT rear ends and a pile of Ruckstell parts as a summer project. Looking forward to your photos!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Gilham Bellflower Ca. on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 09:11 am:

Burger, Now you throw in that you have a Lincoln. One of my TT rears has one that I intend to use (but I haven't looked inside yet) I've got another rear with Lincoln brakes and another with no-name brakes. My plan is to put the Lincoln parts on one rear for use in my project.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 11:07 am:

Anyone with a TT is a trailblazer, to some degree. If your T buddies
aren't ribbing you about speed, you have a whole different nut to crack,
in terms of all the different things Henry did with the cars versus the
trucks. Who to you ask for direction ?

I am infinitely lucky to live in Spokane and have the Antique Auto Ranch
right in my back yard. Tom Carnegie knows more subtle details about
Model T's than Henry himself, and if he isn't sure, he will just ask his
brother Rick. Trouble is, I'd wear out the telephone lines between our
places if I called him for every little question !

Scott, ... are your Lincoln brakes marked "Lincoln" ? Mine have no
markings. I think I'll give them a name like "Linkletter-Munchhausen"
just to make people scratch their heads when I talk about them. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 11:32 am:

Burger, that name you picked indicates that you are OLD! Uh oh, I know where it came from, so I guess I'm OLD too.
Erik, I thought that when that TT came to your shop it would only go 0mph! If that's the one that was towed. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 05:26 pm:

David, different model T. This one drove in here. Slowly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 05:56 pm:

I saw photos of at least one TT that had a Warford, a Lincoln (I think it was a Lincoln - it had under/direct/over mounted to the front of the rear end housing), a Ruckstell and high speed rear end gears. So, in planetary low, Warford low, Lincoln low and Ruckstell low I imagine you'd need to sink a post then come back in a few hours to measure movement.

On the other side of the coin, in planetary high, Warford over, Lincoln over and Ruckstell direct I imagine you could get it going a lot faster than I'd want to go on nearly 100 year old wood spokes.

For he sake of discussion, what's the upper end of the speed spectrum for a ring and worm drive set-up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 06:05 pm:

As I understand it, the "express" gears can get you a comfortable 30-35,
based largely on the balancing of the engine and transmission pushing those
gears. I will give you a real, hands-on report on the subject in the next week.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Pat Kelly Montana on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 06:22 pm:

I have high gears in my TT and it will run down the road at 33 pretty easy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Gilham Bellflower Ca. on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 08:37 pm:

Burger, I have one TT rear with brakes marked Lincoln and another rear with unmarked brakes. I bought the one with the lincoln brakes because I had the rear with the Lincoln aux. trans. I also have 2 TT Ruxtell's. The chassis I'm starting with has a Muncie already and in the driveline is a Universal. My plan has been a TT Depot type vehicle but with more seats that a regular T and more gears. I'm going to have a lot of leftovers when I finally get it all sorted but it will be fun.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Zachary Carrico on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 09:31 pm:

Burger, just for encouragement; I too will definitely be looking forward to a worm drive build thread- I have a pile of rears and want to get a good one put together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 - 01:22 am:

Both my employees are wrench turners, so I kept them late tonight
and we pulled the second side brakes off the old unit, scrubbed 'em
up all purty, and reassembled it all on the new rear end and rolled the
whole mess under under the truck for tomorrow (?). It went back to-
-gether much easier than it came apart, once the parts were cleaned.

Honestly, I wish I had not built a Ruckstell and kept my low gearing
to just the Lincoln. As if the cab isn't cramped enough with ONE shifter,
now I will have two. But I am committed now, so we will push forward.

I will present the rebuild as the greenhorn, noobie that I am. It will be
really basic to cover all the little details I discovered that might save the
next noobie from any extra work as they attack their TT rear end.

=================================================

As the total greenhorn to this subject when I began, I relied heavily
on the advice and guidance of Tom Carnegie at the Antique Auto Ranch
and his brother Rick. For some perverse reason Tom seems to enjoy
helping others to put more Model T's on the road, even going so far as
to let guys like me pick through his wrecking yard for what I would need
to build a Ruckstell worm drive rear end with high speed gears.

I didn't even know how to tell high speed gear parts from the low gears
when I started. A walk through the yard with Tom turned up a gear set
in a largely disassembled rear end, and over in a far corner I found a
Ruckstell and a standard rear that we hefted over the fence with a chain
and the forklift, as it was going to be a lot easier than packing them by
hand OVER the mountain of cars and parts to the closest road/path.

With the basics now in hand, I tore down the Ruckstell and sent the
housing halves off with Rick to have them tanked and sandblasted.
The Ruckstell guts were clean and tight, so I opted to not tear that
apart and just re-install when I got the housing parts back. I cleaned
all the bearings and other parts, bought seals and such from The Ranch
and after painting the housings, reassembled the core with the 5.1 gear
set.

This is pretty much where I left the project over the winter, while I
turned my attention to the engine. With the engine done over the winter,
I rolled the rear ends out from under the TT to resume picking bits off
the parts unit and putting them on the new one. Things like the brakes,
shifter, and grease cups came from the unit in the truck, so everything
got done up to those things, and then it was a matter of doing what has
been done over this past week.

Backtracking a bit, what remained to be done this spring was the bearings
on the worm gear. These were missing from the donor Ruckstell, so they
came from the parts unit. The carrier bearings were good, but the thrust
bearing was wasted from rust, having sat out in a field and filling with water.
Tom come to the rescue again and produced a nice one. It all went together
like a dream. All this work was done at the Tuesday night get togethers at
The Ranch, so now it was time to haul it home and ready for the swap in.

I will write up the rest in installments with photos as time permits.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 - 02:35 am:

Burger, the flexibility you will enjoy having the Ruckstell as well as an overdrive will far outweigh the cramped conditions with two shifters. As you will usually be alone, just place them over to the right as much as you can. I use a Warford and Ruckstell in my dump truck and the combination of twelve forward gears is great. I use seven of them regularly. There is always a selection perfect for whatever conditions. You will appreciate this as you use your truck as what it was intended for... a hauler. I am comfortable in my truck with another person and it cruises easily at 40. It will also beat a lot of model T's at the hill climb.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 - 02:37 am:

Thanks for the encouragement.

I hope you are right.

We'll find out soon enough ! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 - 09:39 am:

I have been running a '25 TT C-cab for 45 years with a cast iron Warford, Ruckstell and 5:1 gears. Good farm truck and for road. Shift lever position no problem...need to notch out the body for the Warford shift tower on a C-cab.
farm truck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 - 11:52 am:

John, Someone stole the C from your C-cab !

When you say "notch the body", are you referring to the floor board ? ....

.... or is there some metal body in the way on a C-cab that isn't there
on a box cab ?

Erik, I am trying to imagine rowing lots of gears and it isn't computing
for me. As I drive mine now, I pretty much drive it in Ruckstell direct all
the time, only using R-low for one long hill I often have to tackle and the
the very occasional heavy load/hill, so my shifting involves gearing DOWN
to keep engine revs up for the power curve.

With the higher gears and souped up engine, it will be a whole new ball
game, with a lot of mystery (at this point) as to what the added power will
do (against the higher gears) for lift off, release to Ford direct, and when
I will do any upshifting against a hill or load.

What has anyone's experience been regarding higher speeds and the
need to balance the wheels/tires and/or driveshaft ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Smith on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 - 06:39 pm:

looking forward to the balancing responses. the definition or round is loosely used for those mentioned parts. not sure how rigid the drive shaft is. I put the shaft in a lathe for fun to check and it became just an exercise in measuring. I just decided it was good enough from Henry. shaft is a warford and livingood shorter, so that can't hurt. I suppose anything you can accomplish in balancing can't hurt. beads in tires?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lovejoy, So Cal on Wednesday, April 19, 2017 - 12:05 am:

I built this table just for my TT rearend rebuild, on advice of a friend. Worked out well, I like it. I put high speed gears and a Rocky Mountain Six Speed on mine. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 01:35 am:

Been a super busy week with work, so I have not got back to the truck
since Tuesday. Tuesday morning I went to put things back together and
ground to a halt when the worm gear-to-drive shaft collar refused to go on
to the worm gear the last 1/2 inch. I made up a clamping slide grip to get
a pulling point in which to draw the collar toward the worm gear, but even
this was not enough.

Backed the collar off with a couple pry bars and that is as far as it got
until tonight. One of my employees is off on drill, and with just the one,
and ending a spray job early, we climbed underneath and dressed all the
surfaces with oil and some emery cloth. About 90 minutes of on and off,
more dressing, and it finally slipped on deep enough to get the pin aligned.
Installed and peened the pin, aligned and bolted up the drive tube to the
rear end, and did the same with the U-joint and 4th main ball collar, and
it was time to fiddle with getting the springs aligned and bolted up to the
rear end. This all went pretty smoothly with two of us to push or hold
things while the other got the bolts started. I did the springs by myself
and put the radius rods and brake rods one. I will tighten and install
cotter pins, safety wire, and the Ruckstell shifter in the AM, bolt up the
wheels, fill the pumpkin with lube, and we are ready for a test run.

I purchased ear and eye protection in anticipation of breaking the
sound barrier. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 07:45 am:

Burger, I hope you got a set of mass pants like the pilots wear


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 11:28 am:

Of course I do. I wear them to the disco and when I polish my brass.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 09:45 pm:

Went and bought myself a box of new cotter pins and cinched up all
the castle nuts to complete the installation. Put a little 85-140 in behind
the thrust bearing and dumped nearly a half gallon into the pumpkin.
The level never did come up to the plug hole, so I was a little concerned
about having enough, but I decided to go give it a test run. Went a block
and everything remained cold to the touch. Went about a mile and still
cold. Stopped to adjust the high/low and brakes, the rear end was still
cold.

What a difference those 5.17 gears make ! Off the line, the truck struggled
to make the jump from low to high, especially going up hill, but once into
the power curve it moved right along with traffic. And SMOOTH ! Wow !
It is really a pleasure to drive now.

I will have to re-learn how to anticipate using the Ruckstell (didn't use it
much with the 7.25's) and how I apply throttle in that power lag as it jumps
from low to high. But, all-in-all, I am thrilled. :-)

Continued on to pick up a load of lumber for the shop and picked up a
case of blueberry hard cider for the upcoming hot weather. Put about 10
miles on. When I checked the work, the wheels could use a snugging and
the rear end was still cold, .... only the worm housing was slightly warm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 10:22 pm:

Careful, now you could possibly get a speeding ticket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Lynn on Sunday, April 23, 2017 - 02:20 pm:

Very nice progress, reminds me of an un-restored TT I had 10 years ago. I too had a c-cab with a jumbo and high speed Ruxtel with overload springs an Bennet aux brakes. I had replaced the side boards but the rest was as is. I wish I could upload better photos but never had much luck on this site.

With the larger rear wheels I could really get up and go as long as I paid attention to which gears I was in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Sunday, April 23, 2017 - 05:58 pm:

I am curious, ... does anyone know what the outside dimensions of
the light duty wheel and tire (as shown on Mark's C-cab above) are, as
opposed to the 20" heavy duty wheel and tire ? I can go measure my
20 inchers.

Is there a difference ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Sunday, April 23, 2017 - 06:31 pm:

OK, on to posting pix of the rear end swap. First of all, I am posting some
of these out of the order taken, because I Iearned along the way that I had some
of it wrong. I will note such as I caption them.

First of all, you are going to need the right tools. Socket and wrenches, from
5/8 to 1-1/8, a hammer or three, a long nose 1/4" drift punch, farkling wheels.
needle nose pliers, cotter pin hook, special TT wheel puller and all assorment
of odds and ends like a bowl of solvent and cleaning brushes, pry bars, floor
jack, proper TT jack, etc.



Farkling wheels (both sizes) and the BFR you'll need for that wheel puller.

I made the mistake of thinking I'd leave the wheels on the rear end to roll
it out from under the truck, but the radius rod bolts must be held on the inside
of the drum area, so I had to reverse direction and do that before pushing on.



Wheel, before work begins.



Unscrew the hubcap and expose the cotter pin and castle nut.



Bend the cotter pin to straight and tap out of axle. Some times these like to
put up a fight and need to be beaten out with a cotter pin hook stuck through
the loop head.



With the cotter pin removed, put a wrench on that nut and remove.



Be sure to pull the washer with the nut. My puller needs that extra little bit
of depth the pull the wheel on some (they vary). It will not hurt to have it
out of there, but having in place may cheat the puller press bolt from needed
throw.



Before using the hub puller, make sure tension bolt is fully backed off.

Place puller on hub, just like you would place a hubcap. Thread to full depth
for maximum pull throw and to avoid thread damage to hub should the wheel
prove stubborn. This is where the BFR helps getting the full depth. As a side
note, cleaning the hub threads of grease and grime may ease the threading
process, that sticky goop in the threads is what keeps the hubcaps from flying
off while driving. You may want to goop them up with a little fresh grease at
the final assembly.

Once puller is threaded to full depth, run in tension bolt to pop wheel off end
of axle. Remove puller to do other side, and roll wheel out of work area for
retrieval later.

These pullers can be purchased from Antique Auto Ranch. 509 . 953 . 4150


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Sunday, April 23, 2017 - 07:22 pm:

Burger,

I rebuilt the rear end in my TT, but I have no clue what Farkling wheels are or what they might be used for. Please enlighten me.

(It took a minute, but I did manage to decipher "BFR". :-))


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Sunday, April 23, 2017 - 08:41 pm:

We'll get into that later.


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