OT new build hot-rods on antique plates

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: OT new build hot-rods on antique plates
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett, Spalding United Kingdom on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 02:24 am:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282429245671

You chaps have highlighted rods registered at the DMV as antiques, now they're being imported to the UK.

The eBay item above was built in the 80s but has been registered as built 1929, based on a US title document. It's evaded Type Approval (imports have to be checked for things like airbags & lights being compliant), qualifies for zero annual tax and is exempt annual safety test. It's fraud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 02:41 am:

Fraud! Self-delusion! Incompetence! The USA leads the way!

As hard as I have to fight and argue with the department of motor vehicles every time I put an antique back on the road. Yet I see dozens, nay, hundreds, of cars with historic, horseless carriage, and even year of manufacture (now, THAT is a laugh!) license plates on them driving down the road like it is a normal thing.

Jem B, My apologies to you for my country exporting this level of bureaucratic incompetence to yours.

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett, Spalding United Kingdom on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 06:37 am:

Wayne, it's our Customs idiots who let it in!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 07:41 am:

Well, we know it didn't come from WI. That type of vehicle would only be titled as a "Hobbyist" vehicle in WI and the plates would have to match. Antique and Collector plates are reserved for historically accurate vehicles and titled accordingly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 07:52 am:

Lets see, no taxes.... hummm Can't be all bad!
It's hell trying to build a kit car or a custom and get it legal to drive it on the road. People do what they can.. It is something that needs a path. It is a hobby that like it or not is very similar to ours. Be careful what you wish for.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 10:02 am:

John
I'm with you 100%


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 10:10 am:

I wonder if it has any 1929 parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marv Konrad (Green Bay Area) on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 12:28 pm:

-Steve-
At least the cowl looks to be '29....
-Kevin-
You brought up a point of which I've never inquired about with our DMV or State/Local cops.
The scenario: If there were to be an existing, say 1930 titled vehicle, then legally transferred to a new owner ('Mr. Hot Rod'), and be registered as 'Antique'... 'Mr. Hot Rod does his thing, and continues on his way. Don't you think our Police Officers would find it to be an 'Inappropriate Registration'??? ($$$$$$!) Not really different than re-registering a scrapped car's title, just having a 'hot rod' body and parts??? The punitive part of falsifying wouldn't enter into it until an accident or police pull-over. Will bet it has happened.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 01:00 pm:

The local tool museum was donated a "1902 Curved Dash Oldsmobile" as defined by a local antique car dealer, so it has horseless Carriage plates. It is a 1960s Bliss Surrey with a metal body, powered by a Wisconsin engine. Granted the Bliss Surreys are rare in themselves, but are definitely NOT a "Horseless Carriage." Why this dealer made the claim that it's an original Olds is beyond me, as the Bliss is pretty well documented, and has a builder's plate, and there is an online-registry of survivors.
Typical mis-appropritaion of licensing.
There's also a '34 Plymouth hot-rod in this town with YOM plates. IMHO, FRAUD!! AND it gives our hobby a bad name, and makes registering more complex as the authorities try to "fix" it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 01:22 pm:

Bureaucratic process allow this kind of nonsense. When the approving gatekeepers are incompetent (or on the take) anything is possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 01:39 pm:

We have some progressive Rodders in our State. Many of us get along well with them. Serious Rodders should be able to lobby for their own plates. Why would they want the funky Antique plates anyway.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 04:09 pm:

I am curious, who is the supposed victim of this "fraud"?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen, South Texas on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 05:39 pm:

Except for the Zorro stripe on the inside of the door, it looks tastefully done. I wouldn't mind owning it. Not much different than buying a 25 Touring, removing the body and wanting a new title for a 1912 Speedster; now is it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 05:59 pm:

Every owner of a "real" antique. Every taxpayer. Every innocent victim of a crash involving a high powered fast yet unsafely built supposedly antique.
The primary reasons to licensing hot rods as antiques is to avoid safety requirements, modern vehicle taxes for which "real" antiques are exempt, and annual safety inspections.
Real antiques do pose ethical dilemmas. Most of them are seldom driven, are not fast enough arguably to do major damage to other vehicles and property (note, I said arguably). Simply put, annual inspections and modern usage road taxation are not practical for antiques.
The biggest problem with hot rods is that most of them are built as hobby cars by people that do not understand the engineering necessities involved with the horsepower, weight, and speed. They need and deserve a proper and legal avenue of inspection and licensing. Not a fraudulent evasion of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 06:27 pm:

So the "victims" are strawmen...

A different license plate won't make the car any safer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 07:16 pm:

I like them original but I like nicely done street rods and we all benefit from the parts. I just bought a model A frame running with new tires for $1200. Good parts for my original cars. Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 07:18 pm:

Derek, we are all 'strawmen' When legitimately imposed safety standards, regulations and taxes are imposed, we all benefit indirectly. Loopholes allowing avoidance of these matters are a crime against us all.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 08:59 pm:

Without the hotrodders, we might not be allowed on the roads at all. Hotrodders have a huge presence in SEMA, which has been actively fighting for the rights of ALL automotive hobbyists at both Federal and State level (in all 50 states) for decades.

Large organizations like the Minnesota Street Rod Association have lobbied for the very same laws that make it easier to get titles and plates legally for our Model Ts in my state.

The idea that we somehow benefit from beareaucrats making us jump through hoops while sucking our wallets dry is absurd. Believing in the benevolence of government is rediculous. It has nothing to do with safety, and everything to do with money and power.

We're all automotive hobbyists with a common enemy, do-gooder beareaucrats who want us all off the roads to save us from ourselves. Rather than being upset, we should be happy that anyone is able to put another old car, real or fake, back on the road for their own enjoyment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 09:09 pm:

Right on Dereck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Sunday, April 16, 2017 - 09:35 pm:

About ten years ago, North Carolina got caught in this kind of situation. A person convinced his friend in DMV to title his car (1932 Ford kit car)as a 1932 Ford. He then sold it to an unsuspecting person who found out later that it was a kit car and not a real 1932 Ford. Heads rolled in DMV and I think some politicians got their hands slapped. They then fixed the potential of this happening again writing a book for inspectors at DMV to use to inspect any collector car coming into the state for authenticity prior to issuing a title. This was overkill in some situations as the book called out items that should exist on an original car but these items were not on the cars originally. (example--speedometer on a 1920 Model T) If the book called for something like that and it wasn't found on the car, it would not pass and no title would be issued. In this case, several of us have asked the DMV to correct this and the answer was to "contact your legislator for a bill to get passed to correct the code book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marv Konrad (Green Bay Area) on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 12:47 am:

Wisconsin has a sensible approach. When there is a car being built with a 'Replica' body, it can be built to resemble the original, but with appropriate safety requirements. A 'T-Bucket' kit car can not be titled as an 'Antique', and the title will clearly state it as 'Replica'. If it is an 'original', you're going to have to "Prove it!"
Requisites for getting the replica's title issued include not just a Bill-of-Sale, but the manufacturer's certificate, a numbered manufacturer's ID plate corresponding to that paperwork, then affixed to the completed car, (i.e. the body's door opening or firewall) along with the receipts for parts and any outside labor.
Once all documentation and fees have been provided and paid, an approved State Trooper or DMV inspector has to verify the safety and road-worthiness of the vehicle. (Note: Better to 'over-build' than ignore or take the chance...)
Insurance-salvaged vehicles will need that inspection before they can be put back on the road. Those titles are also identified with a 'Salvaged Vehicle' stamp/certification.
If not inspected/certified, gaining your own insurance beyond 'personal property' or obtaining proper registration isn't possible. Cops aren't all dummies either, once they see you on the road!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 04:28 am:

Derek, your last sentence hit the nail on the head. "We should be happy that anyone is able to put another old car, real or fake, back on the road for their own enjoyment."

The argument is about fake vehicles being passed off as genuine old cars. By all means build your fake vehicles and hot rods and enjoy them, but do not pass them off as genuine old cars, especially if doing so is aimed at skirting around safety items and build quality.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 08:34 am:

Who gets to determine what is fake?

Is a nice restored Model T with a depot hack body real or fake? How about a speedster? How about any T built up from parts?

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 09:02 am:

In Texas don't tell the DMV that you built the car from parts. Get somebody to write a bill of sale. I don't care if that little piece of paper says that my 1914 T is a 1909, a 1927 or a 1942 so long as they give me some plates. They just want the money and I just want to drive. If the insurance company didn't want a picture of the car I'd stamp that 14 number on my 21 and buy one plate for both. I'm sure nobody would know the difference unless they were into T's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 09:18 am:

A big part of the problem is that classifications and descriptions are not uniform from state to state...and my guess nation to nation. My '26 Touring was at some point in its life rebuilt with donor parts in Minnesota someplace. According to MN DMV it needed to be titled as a "reconstruct" (although it had antique Pioneer plates on it). When I purchased the car and went to title it in WI, I was told that since it was a "reconstruct" it had to be "hot rod" and needed to be titled and tagged as a Hobbyist vehicle. Only problem was that it did indeed resemble a 1926 Model T Touring car (because it was!), and that violated the law that states that reconstruct vehicles can not resemble the "originals". From there commenced three months of anguish and aggravation in my quest to convince WI DMV that my car was indeed an antique and worthy of Collector titling and plates. In the end I prevailed, but I would not want to repeat the ordeal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, April 17, 2017 - 12:12 pm:

Kevin, your problem started with telling the DMV TOO much. Never call a restored car an "assembled" car if it's all period correct pieces. I once worked for a guy who had an original 1927 American Rolls Royce that had been cut up into parts on a ranch, but almost all the parts were there (the body wasn't found, but he had the windshield and the Side Curtains!). The CA DMV wanted to title it as an assembled car and put a modern year on it. It took a lot of work to get that corrected, and on RR, most parts are number stamped, and on his car the numbers matched because they came from the same car.
NEVER volunteer information at the DMV!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 - 11:06 am:

I've seen Horseless Carriage Plates on street rods. Disgusting, and what really irritates me is when you have a legitimate car to register, they give you a bunch of crap, and this is in California!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 - 01:26 pm:

Every once in a while you will see a horseless carriage plate on one of those Kit Cars in Florida. One of my best memories though was my Dad took me on a ride along (He was a Florida State Trooper) and we pulled up behind one of those Hot Rods, He "lit him up" and pulled him over. Dad explained to the driver that those license plates were for pre war "Original" cars and his didn't qualify due to the modern drive-train. The guy got real upset and started threatening Dad,I was told to radio for backup long story short the guy was arrested charged with fraud, threatening a police officer and various other charges. He was fined 1,500 and sentenced to 30 days this was in 1969 so you always have people trying to twist the rules in their favor.


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