Spindle bolt reamer size?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Spindle bolt reamer size?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, AZ on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 05:41 pm:

I ordered spindle bolts from one vendor and a reamer from another.
The spindle bolts measure .500" The reamer is .504" . If I ream my new spindle bushings with that reamer, the hole will be .004" oversize. Is this a common clearance for king pin to bushing fit?




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 05:43 pm:

The reamer will work but the fit will be a bit sloppy. New original Ford spindle bolts were 0.502-0.503", so that reamer would work for those. Lang's "best quality" early bolts are the original Ford size.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Beyer on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 05:57 pm:

I'm going through this same problem myself. I bought spindle bolts from one vendor but didn't buy the reamer they offered until I had the bolts in-hand and could measure them. The bolts measured 0.4998" - 0.5000". Back on their website the description says their reamer is 0.5000" which would be too tight. I opted to buy a 0.5010" reamer online for $20. I'm going to change spindle bushings this weekend and we'll see how it goes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 06:20 pm:

I got spindle bolts and reamer from Lang's.
The spindles measure .500 and the reamer is .501.

The fit is great.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, AZ on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 06:34 pm:

Yes, It does seem that .004 oversize would be excessive and a "little sloppy".

Would think that with a .4998" to .5000" diameter spindle bolt a .501" reamer would be perfect. Any less and you would have binding. Then again if one had .004" clearance, there would be zero chance of binding. Am on the fence whether to use the .504" reamer or send it back and try a different type of reamer. I do like the piloted alignment lead feature.

Found this on Lang's website:
"What do your spindle bolts mic out at?
The bolts mic out at exactly .500. The original ones where .003 oversized."

Apparently the current diameter available is .500"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, AZ on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 06:42 pm:

Found Lang's "original style spindle bolts" on their website.
.502" diameter. However, it states these are only for 1909 - 1914!

https://www.modeltford.com/item/2710SAOR.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, AZ on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 06:55 pm:

Found this on Lang's website:

Questions and Answers:
What is the finished hole size for this reamer? What is the diameter of your spindle bolts? The reamer is a .500" reamer and the bolts are measuring at .4995" I like to hone out the bushings just alittle bit more to get about a .001" clearance after I run the reamer through them.

I suppose I could send my .504" back and order Lang's reamer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 07:10 pm:

OK OK split hairs.
The spindles and reamer from Lang's work very well.

They are probably 100 times better than back in the day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, AZ on Friday, April 21, 2017 - 08:01 pm:

Fred,
Apparently we were in the process of posting at the same time earlier. Thanks for pointing me towards Langs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 03:42 am:

Just take the spindles to a machine shop with a Sunnen hone and have them hone them. Better than any reamer job. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 07:17 am:

I think there probably is/was a misunderstanding on the use of various reamers. The TOP HOLE in the front axle for the spindle is .504 on the Ford drawing so that the spindle bolt can pass through it easily and then tighten into the threaded bottom hole. That top hole must be reamed with a pilot type reamer to make sure then that the spindle bolt will align and thread into the bottom hole of the axle without binding up. The spindle must be reamed with a pilot reamer as well but NOT the same size as the upper axle hole. If you have the Stevens tool for repairing the front axle then the tapered bushing that installs into a tapered upper axle hole will fit tighter than original but will not bind up until you tighten up the spindle bolt and that is a great fix for the front axle worn spindle hole to not only remove any oversize in that upper hole but then to make it tighter than original. I suspect the loose upper hole being .504 was to allow fast assembly of spindle bolts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, AZ on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 11:15 am:

Dan,
Thanks for the Sunnen hone recommendation. I will look into this.

John, thank you for the clarification on the spindle bushing / axle yoke hole sizes. This is the best explanation I have seen regarding the purpose for the hole specifications. Makes sense now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 11:33 am:

John, are you speaking of the top hole in the AXLE or in the spindle bushing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 12:17 pm:

Top hole in Axle is .504 Bottom hole is threaded.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 12:59 pm:

Going back to the 1915 parts book and through in to the 20s the spindle bolts (part #2710)are listed as 1/2". Some time ago I purchased a spindle, bushing and reamer set and the spindles and reamer are 1/2" and the bushings are .005 under. Where do all these odd numbers come from. For spindle bushings, size for size is the best fit. If the assembly is straight in line there will be no binding. I wouldn't consider any clearance for spindles just size for size. If you had the bushing refrigerated and the reamer somewhat above room temperature that would be all the clearance you would need maybe .00001. Definitely honing will give you the best fit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 01:24 pm:

OK, maybe I'm wrong here, but if the original spec is for .503, I would think a . 500 or .499 bolt would be sloppy in the upper AXLE hole, and the threads loose in the lower threaded AXLE hole.
Maybe this is why so many axles nowadays are worn, both top and bottom.
Since we know the original specs, WHY aren't the modern parts made to them??????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 01:47 pm:

One bolt IS made to the original specs: Lang's 2710SAOR. I know because I make them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 03:07 pm:

That's good to know, from reading this thread, that wasn't confirm-able!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, AZ on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 03:37 pm:

R.V. Anderson,
Thanks for making and supplying original spec. spindle bolts.

What is the difference between the 1909-1914 and the 1915-1927 spindle bolts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 05:05 pm:

The spindle bolt does NOT turn in the upper hole since it is threaded into the lower hole and there is a locknut under the axle hole to keep it from turning hence the upper clearance hole is not going to wear out. That is just the clearance they gave it for ease of assembly no doubt. The axle boss is rather thick up there so .004 clearance for assembly is of no consequence. The spindle then rotates by using the clearance between its bushing ID and the bolt OD. Its pretty simple.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 05:26 pm:

Sorry John, that's not my experience; I have seen axles with the upper hole egged out. I also have Hassler shock bodies with the pivot hole egged out, even though the bolt head has a flat that it seats against, so it shouldn't turn in that hole.
Why this happens, I can only speculate that with a little clearance, over the decades the pin in the hole vibrates and wears the hole bigger.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Mazza on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 05:37 pm:

I have the newer reamer and guide from langs and it works perfectly. Should someone nearby need to borrow them, I would be happy to help. I am in western ma.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Mazza on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 05:40 pm:

I have the newer reamer and guide from langs and it works perfectly. Should someone nearby need to borrow them, I would be happy to help. I am in western ma.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 06:42 pm:

As RV pointed out, the early spindle bolts look different than the late ones, and then '15-17 spindle bolts are different yet, and to my knowledge not obtainable. I have some NOS late Ford script spindle bolts, and I believe they are .503 also. I can't verify this now as I'm out of town for a week.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, April 22, 2017 - 07:42 pm:

I agree with Dan Hatch. I take my bolts and the spindles to my machine shop and have them hone them. Always come back perfect.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, AZ on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 - 12:54 pm:

Update:
I returned the .504" diameter reamer to the vendor and took the spindles to a local automotive machine shop with a Sunnen hone.

Spindle bolts are nice slip fit into bushings with no perceptible play. Cost was $20. for both spindles. Very happy with the results.

Hone cross hatch pattern.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 - 08:27 pm:

To answer Bob's question, the (later) '09-'14 bolts that I make are different in that they have a crowned end on the shank, the heads are 25/32", and are tapped for the brass thread-in oilers. Also, originally, they didn't have an oil groove, though I added them on my reproductions. That is the only way they differ from originals.

The earliest '15 style bolts (most likely used only on what would have normally been called "1915s" that were built in late '14) used a brass knurled "manhole" cover and body in a separate assembly that threaded into the earlier bolt in place of the usual oiler. After several months this was replaced by an entirely new 2 piece bolt that had a separate head pinned to the shank and used a brass "manhole" cover. After a short time of that the bolts were once again made in a single piece with the now steel "manhole" oiler assembly integral with the bolts. This lasted only into mid '16 as I recall.

The specified diameter of the bolt shanks never changed, through '27. (The Ford service book was still specifying that the spindle bushings be reamed 0.504/0.504 (upper and lower) in 1925.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, AZ on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 12:50 pm:

R.V. Anderson,
Thanks for pointing out the differences between the early spindle bolts and later ones.

Thanks to all for sharing your expertise and recommendations.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 06:20 pm:

I have 5 original spindle bushing reamers. 3 of them measure 0.500 and 2 measure 0.504. All of the original bolts I have measure 0.500 at the center where there is no wear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 06:49 pm:

A sunnen hone will Not align two bushings in a straight line. When the high spots wear off, a less the perfect job will show sooner.

What you are doing is honing one bushing to a fit you want, and the second bushing is honed so the bolt goes through when it is big enough.

A sunnen hone can't align bore, a long reamer can.

Also check king bolts. Some are made and hardened, and called done. They are not straight!

Good ones are made, heat treated, and then ground.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 06:57 pm:

Now I am really confused. Some say the later post 1915 bolts were 0.500. others say that the pre 1915 bolts were 0.504. I have some pre 1915 bolts that measure 0.498 at the center. What do the original specs say? The Ford shop manual says to ream the bushings to 0.504. Page 167.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, AZ on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 08:26 pm:

Herm,
From Sunnen Website:

King Pin Bores - Even lower volume operations such as king pin rebuilding can be profitable with the versatile Sunnen LBB-1660.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 09:09 pm:

Spindle bolt trivia from the Ford drawings and releases:

The crown was removed from the end of the shank and was replaced by a 45 degree bevel on March 28, 1917.

The size of the head changed from 25/32" to 11/16" across the flats on April 10, 1917.

Ford script added to head on June 16, 1919.

Ford specified the diameter of the bolts to be 0.502/0.504" from later in 1909 until January 1920 when it was changed to 0.500/0.504".

The steel from which they were made changed several times but the bolts were always specified to be case hardened and ground.

Of course the dates in the Releases do not mean that this change or that change was actually made to the bolts in production on those dates. Most would have taken a month or so to start appearing in actual production. The Releases record dozens of changes over the years. Most were quite minor, such as changing the pitch diameter limits of the threads, or a miniscule change in the diameter of the oil groove, or noting that such and such a change will result in the weight of the steel coils (from which the bolts were made) changing by a few ounces.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 09:45 pm:

I see that Bob, must be fairly new, nobody that I know has anything like that. I know they would be some what costly.

I doubt if many modern cars would have enough 1/2 inch spindles, or double bushings to warrant the price, or even having one.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen Chaffin on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 09:54 pm:

R.V. Nice seeing you at Bakersfield. 0.500-0.504. That's a wide tolerance. Impossible to supply a reamer that will work over that range unless it is an expandable reamer and those are not long enough. I have never seen one that measures 0.502-0.504. My early ones measure 0.498.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 11:06 pm:

the Sunnen hone at the local auto parts store had hones that were long enough to fit through both bushings at one. The smaller hones are used for piston pin honing.
I don't think their machine shop is open anymore. RATS!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Doris, AZ on Friday, April 28, 2017 - 12:11 am:

Better picture of Sunnen LBB-1660 hone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Friday, April 28, 2017 - 02:36 pm:

Ya, looks like that would do the job, alright.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Friday, April 28, 2017 - 03:50 pm:

Glen, I have one. It's .503-0.504". It's new but purpose-built for the Ford bolts.

Nice seeing you out there. The springs were waiting for me when I got home!


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