What do I offer?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: What do I offer?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 - 10:29 pm:

Hi,
I'm new to the forum and have an opportunity to purchase what I believe to be a 1914 model T. I apologize for the poor pictures but it's what was sent to me. I will be looking at it myself soon and at that time can take additional photos. The car was purchased at auction and does not have a title but was listed as a 14'. It has not been run in many years, the wiring is shot, and the tires are rotten. It appears from the photos and what he told me that is it's a truck body on a car frame, doesn't have a truck axle, a ruckstel, or rocky m brakes. So the question is, what's it worth as he wants me to have it and I'm to make him an offer. Is there anything specific to look for?
Thanks in advance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David L Corman on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 - 10:46 pm:

First thing check with DMV to see how difficult(costly) it will be to get a title. Bill of sale will not work in many states. Some states will allow you to get a bonded title. Value of vehicle would be much less with no valid title.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 - 11:11 pm:

With no title you can deduct at least 800.00 from what an agreeable price would be. If you want it bad enough and get it at a reasonable price you can use a bonded title service which can save you a LOT or time, headaches and frustration in getting a clear title. Besides contacting the DMV you can find a bonded tile service that has experience with older and antique vehicles in your area. Ask the service what the cost would be. Check the engine number which is right over the radiator outlet pipe which is on the drivers side to determine if it falls in the 14 range.

Find out about the title situation first before anything else. I would let the seller know that could be a deal breaker before anything else and will definitely affect the price.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 - 11:19 pm:

After 90+ years, many Model T's (maybe most) have a mixture of parts from various years. In this case, for example, the hood is 1915 (if it's aluminum) or 1916 (if it's steel). The bulb horn and the gas headlamp suggest that 1914 may be correct for most of the car, but the few photos leave a lot of the story untold. The serial number (above the water inlet) will at least tell the date of the engine. The wood cab and its dealer tag are a nice plus in my book, if the wood is solid. I think eight grand would be a good deal for you if all is well internally. If a lot of it is shot, that's too much. As David says, check on Oregon's procedures on a vehicle with only a bill of sale. In some states that's no problem. In others, it's a nightmare.

Here's a page on Model T prices: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG99.html.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 - 11:57 pm:

Ned, I'm with Steve on this. I'd love to find a closed cab truck like that. If it is built by one of the companies building aftermarket bodies, it is quite desireable. It is nice to have a genuine T which is a little different to the run-of-the-mill black Ford factory types.
The hood former, hood and coilbox all are later than 14. The lights are correct for 14. Either way, it is still a neat find.
I have no idea what value it might be in USA, but if you buy it and get sick of it, let me know. Forever optimistic,
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 12:14 am:

The front fenders have bills and looks like 3 rivet brackets to me. Maybe it's a 1915 with gas lights. Coil box has rounded corner top but slanted unlike the 14 lid.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 12:35 am:

Ned-
Welcome to the forum!

The short running boards lead me to believe it might be a TT.

Measure the wheelbase. Standard chassis in 99" TT is 125". Very different animal and different value, too.

Please take some more photos and tell the seller that you want to show the photos to your Model T friends for their opinions. Since he wants you to have it and he wants you to make an offer, the truck isn't going anywhere soon.

A week from Thursday, on May 4, is the meeting of the Rose City Model T Club. Here is some club and meeting information:

http://www.rosecitymodeltclub.org/
https://www.facebook.com/rosecitymodeltclub

I look forward to seeing more pictures.

: ^ )

Keith Townsend
Tool Chairman
Rose City Model T Club


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 03:49 am:

Keith, I noticed the TT running boards too, but I think they must be a later addition. They are on forged support brackets. The rear radius rods do not look heavy enough, and the rear wheels look to be the same size as the fronts. All in all, there are inconsistencies which add up to multiple sources of parts from a range of years.If that is a Hercules body, that may give those who know about such things a clue as to its age. Whatever, I really like it.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 04:15 am:

Running boards are very suspicious looking, like '25 to '27 suspicious. Proper year of the engine is important for brass era Ts, car or truck. Rear radius rods angle looks like car, but pictures do not show enough to tell for sure. For all practical purposes, ton truck TT trucks WERE NOT manufactured before 1918 model year! Although there must be at least a hundred of them around claimed as brass era.

Almost any model T can be a lot of fun, and well worth having. But for the real world dollar value, it makes a really big difference how close it is to a correct year. That is especially true with brass era vehicles. Whether it is a later car, or a later TT, that has been back-dated to appear as a '14/'15/'16? Or a real '14 that has had some pieces changed over the years? It looks to have a lot of potential to be a very interesting model T!

I would recommend getting to know a few of the local model T people and club members. Many would be willing to look it over with you, and most of them already have too many cars and parts to have any real desire to beat you out of anything. I often recommend figuring out what you want, and what you want from it, before digging yourself in too deep. The best way to do that, is getting to know several hobbyists, and talk to them about the different cars and activities.
Good luck with this! And if this one doesn't work out for some reason? One thing about model T Fords. There will be another one along soon.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 08:46 am:

Ned,

From what I can see of it, and assuming it runs o.k., maybe $5K - $6K. Just my opinion. Could be worth more... get more pictures and facts, as suggested above.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 09:22 am:

I'm with Jerry. For me no title is no sale but in the $5K area from the pics + not running. Don't jump at the first one you see if you can possibly help it. You've got an after market made body and a number of parts from different years. I'm betting titling is going to be a real "pleasure" at least.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 09:38 am:

The value is what it is worth to you. I think, either I've been lucky, or the values stated above are a little high.
I purchased a Speedster from Model T Haven for 2k and the rolling chassis is the basis for my War Wagon. I purchased a rolling chassis from an estate sale for $800 and after adding 4 coils and a head gasket, got it running.
Looks like you will get a rolling chassis that might or might not have a running engine and good radiator and you will need a new body.
Up to you, but I don't know that I'd pay 5k for that. If you jump in and drive it home and it is something you can restore what is there and not have to add significant $$ to, then, yes, 5k might be a reasonable number.

JMO


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David L Corman on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 09:46 am:

Let the seller price it. Whatever you offer will
NEVER be enough. Some of the pitfalls could include engine--$3500 to rebuild, radiator---$1000 to replace, tires--$1000 to replace, and ect. I feel not being able to hear it run and being able to drive it would make me very careful in buying it. It is much easier getting into trouble than getting out of it. My advice would to buy a running driving car since it appears you are a beginner in the hobby. Go to a Model T meeting and make great friends who would be glad to help you out. A lot of good advice given above by Keith, Steve, and others.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 09:49 am:

With a early engine,nice cab,side lights,gas head lights,brass horn,and brass radiator you have a lot of value in parts alone.If someone a friend or relation want's you to have it that in mhop add's value so avoid the need to be cheap and if you want it make a fair offer. If you want a high value correct T avoid making a offer on this one?? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 10:05 am:

$3500 won't rebuild the engine properly!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 10:07 am:

Ned,

Some folks have mentioned the aftermarket body as if it's a bad thing, or that it subtracts from the truck's value. Not true. That's a very nice body, made by an aftermarket manufacturer, and not a guy with plywood and a saber saw. It's a legitimate and proper body, even if not made by Ford.

Yes, there will undoubtedly be work needed and that always has associated costs. If you accurately subtract the cost of said work, you may have the owner owing YOU money. That just illustrates the underlying fact, that antique cars are not a wise financial investment. But, that's NOT why we do this stuff! We are willing to invest in a greater gain than can be measured in dollars; the preservation of history, the association with good people who share this interest and the sheer fun of driving these things. In other words, you're paying for more than the material item sitting before you. All that being said, there's still no sense in being foolish about your money. Therefore, you've done the right thing to ask.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 10:17 am:

If you would like a project like this truck and would enjoy getting it back on the road, then make him an offer.

I suggest $3000.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 11:24 am:

The wide range of estimated values here demonstrates the difficulty of determining a reasonable price without in-person inspection by somebody knowledgeable. If we had more and better pictures it would help, but the ideal thing would be to have two or three experienced Model T folks check it out. Whatever the price, it's going to need fixing. Experienced T guys will have an idea how much fixing ($$$) that's likely to be. This thing appears to have the potential to be a wonderful Model T. I would go to that meeting and see if some members would look it over in person and give their opinions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 11:58 am:

No title > condition issues.

Better do very good research on what paperwork it will take to get it on the road (legally).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 12:01 pm:

Ned and I have been in contact. I know a little about the back story on this rig from what he emailed me asking my OP on price. I suggested he ask here because this one is just a little out of my league. If it were a touring or runabout I could come up with a ball park. I suggested also that the seller get a title for it as he is the one that bought it and has all the paper work. There are not a lot of people in our T club that are current on prices, some have over payed when they bought, some have bought right, some have had their car for a loooong time or don't even own a T and are not looking for one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 12:45 pm:

I that case, the next best thing is lots of good pictures. This page on selling a T has some suggestions that apply.

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG100.html

Parts of these pages may help:

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG98.html

http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG99.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 07:29 pm:

May I post about this super cute little T pickup? Oddball? Sure! Jerry, Steve and Allan say some cool things above.
Ned, you could call it a Ford light truck. :-) You already stated it doesn't have a truck axle. :-)
The pics thus far are really neat! I'm itching for more pics also! It does appear to have a helluva nice cab.

You suggest the wiring is shot. I see a later engine/lighting harness dropped into a non starter engine bay. I see a generator wire hanging out in space right where it should be IF there were a gen there and perhaps extra lighting wires hanging loose above the engine. :-) Would you guys confirm?
I'd wager that with a little foolishness you could get spark to those coils and if the tank will hold gas and the NH carb will do the same, a fella could have it running in an afternoon or less if half lucky.
If the valves aren't stuck, it'll go.

If I showed your pics to my son, he'd just drool all over himself and beg me for money but this is your deal on an "all-weather light delivery". :-)
You have some ball park figures. If you like it? Go get it. :-)
You could try the matchbook trick you each write a number down in your matchbook and then show them. I'm actually no help whatever.
Babbling done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 08:03 pm:

Roberts right it's worth what it's worth to you. I have 2 T s I got a good deal on to me and one I paid average price for but it had tons of work and was rust free, new engine tranny, coils, radiator interior and top,paint and it was a nice car before the builder started on it. Again I still paid what they bring restored when someone is getting out of cars. So no great deal. This forum is the place to be patient and buy a car from people who have decades of experience in repairs and knowledge. JMHO Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 09:13 pm:

Thank you all for the initial responses.
I'm hearing you all loud and clear, go no further without contacting DMV. Last night I sent an email to Oregon dmv and surprisingly received a response this afternoon. " if you do no it have the current out of state title, you will need to contact the state where the vehicle was titled for instructions on replacement."
Steve Jelf, the engine hood is aluminum and the wood looks original and solid.
Allan Bennett, I don't know who built the cab but it looks like a Hercules body. It's that body that's got my attention.
Keith Townsend, thanks for the Rose City link. I met some of the club in Clackamas last Saturday morning. My membership paperwork is filled out and hope to see you next week in Tigard. P.S. I contacted you by phone last week reguarding the Strobo-sparker.
Wayne Sheldon, I'll check out many of the items you suggested and report back.
Jerry VanOoteghem, the aftermarket body is the best part in my opinion. Thanks for you input on value but the engine has not run in years and without a new wire harness won't.
Charlie B, thank you for your value input. the truck body Is what I really like about this vehicle and with the forum help I am trying to dot my I's and cross my T's, pun intended.
Robert Brought, like you I have been lucky in my antique purchases, that being said my pockets aren't deep and I need to buy wisely. If the group determines the value to be higher than I can afford I will let the owner know and let him decide the next move.
David Corman, I hear what you're saying about not being able to hear or drive it, pig in a poke. If this was a touring or another more common body I wouldn't bother but the truck body has my interest and if it is a 14 all the better.
Keith Delong, I understand the parts having value, I guess what I hope to learn from the group is what to look for, be able to share this information with the owner, and make a fair and educated offer.
Ted Dumas, thanks for the suggested offer, that helps. I really don't need the truck and especially another project (so says my wife) but I do like that unique truck body.
So,
Items to check or photograph
1. Engine serial number
2. Look at front fenders for bills and number of rivets suggested by Corey Walker
3. Measure wheel base. 99" or 125" suggested by Keith Townsend
4. Take additional pics of running boards and brackets. Allan, Keith, and Wayne Sheldon.
5. Take pics of rear axle, radius rods, and wheels.
Anything else?
Thanks again.
Ned


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 09:28 pm:

Duey, it is a nice cab from what he's told me and I'm drooling over it myself.
Hi Tim,
it is worth what it's worth to me but,
I would be the fool if I gave him 15K if it's only worth 5K and the owners thinking 3K. I'd feel even worse if it were the other way around giving him 3 if it were indeed a 15k car. Just want it to be fair for both parties.
Thanks guys


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 09:52 pm:

I'm not going to insult your intelligence by suggesting a negotiating strategy, but part of your "offer" is %% and the rest of your "offer" is what meets the sellers needs.

If you pay with cash, can tow the car home the next day, will make sure his garage is left neat and clean, assure the seller that the T is going to be cared for and respected, not flipped, and that you and your family will enjoy it as much as he and his family did, etc.

It's not just numbers. It's a package.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 10:00 pm:

Yes, a few other pictures to shoot for details: springs (front & rear); pedals; steering column (no tube, small tube, big tube?); hogshead; radiator tag.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 10:21 pm:

If you leave a clean garage as Robert advised you will know if you got all the pieces.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 - 10:47 pm:

That's what I hate about no title cars. The seller really can't prove it's actually his to sell and as the buyer you're paying him for the privelege of proving that it's not only his to sell but actually yours when you pay for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 12:17 am:

Oregon like Washington has a simple bonded title process. You take all your documents and the vehicle to the State for an in person inspection.

Once the serial number is ran through their system and it comes up clear, they will issue a bonded title. This is a legal title allowing you to get license to drive the car.

You can not sell the car until the 3 year bond period is up. If in that time frame no one provides proper ownership documents you then apply for a permanent title. Then you can sell or keep the car.

I for one would not let that deter me from buying any car. I have done bonded titles on several brass era cars with no problems what so ever.

just sayin'

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 02:50 am:

I had to laugh at that one! Oregon says if it came from out of state, let some other state sort it out! Boy, talk about passing the buck.
I have have never let lost titles stop me either. I do recommend allowing some dollars in the price for the risk and efforts required. I am not familiar with Oregon's rules, but they vary a lot from one state to the next. BCG seems to know, and I would trust his opinion.
After-market bodies? I LOVE them. Willie Cordes' coupe is one of my all time favorite Ts (by the way, how is Willie doing? Haven't heard from him in awhile). I have had two boat-tail roadsters, a TT truck with an after-market wood body, and a '14 pickup with a restored from an original blacksmith built body on it. It had mostly original hand/hammer/anvil made brackets. One of my best friends is restoring an original American roadster model T.
Actually, many people are kidding themselves about their Ts. All brass era Ts have bodies from outside suppliers, as did most Ts until about 1921. After that, only most touring and runabout Ts, some (steel cab only) ton trucks, and MAYBE some late sedans or coupes, had Ford built bodies. My '24 coupe even had a supplier built body.

I look forward to seeing more and better pictures of this one. An aside to consider. Some cars (or trucks), that do not look quite right and appear to have been altered or back-dated in the past? Actually can be split into two cars, with proper parts for both the early and late variations being used to make two more correct cars. Sometimes, not everybody agrees on doing this. It really depends on the circumstances and known history. Sometimes, the late version of an earlier car becomes so much a part of that particular car's history, that it should be maintained as such. Sometimes the modifications were done so out of era, and often badly done, that it really is better to get the pieces to return the car to its original version. Sometimes, that can leave just enough of the later version for it to be built up and also restored.
This sort of thing does not happen only with Fords, let alone model Ts. Some years ago, a friend of mine had a rather interesting Pierce Arrow. It was a 1915 touring car, that was re-bodied about 1925 as a custom sport roadster. After a couple years consideration, and a lot of feedback from friends, the excellent original 1915 chassis was refitted with a proper (partially original, partially correctly done remake) 1915 style touring car body. He later assembled a mid teens chassis, and restored the custom roadster. Now two beautiful Pierce Arrows that almost everyone loves both.
Good luck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Shirley on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 04:26 am:

Looks like a once in a life time deal, and as I've been told, you regret what you don't do much, much more than the dollars. I would say buy it if possible. Make it safe to drive, glass, rear end, brakes and enjoy the American treasure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David L Corman on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 12:01 pm:

It has been my limited
experience with bonded titles that a tag will be affixed to you car with a different VIN number to the firewall. I have seen SOS---Secretary of State or two letter abbreviation of the state issuing the bonded title before the number Engine number was not used at all. Also if you buy a car with no title, spend money to restore it and someone comes along who can prove it is rightfully his, a very good chance you would lose your money. It is imperative that these issues are sorted out before purchase. Nice project otherwise, but you really don't own it till comes out of bonding process.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, April 28, 2017 - 08:12 am:

Ned,How did you make out?? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Monday, May 01, 2017 - 11:02 pm:

OK mtfca,
Engine number looks like 291242.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Monday, May 01, 2017 - 11:09 pm:

I'm a little late to the party on this one but Robert Brough nailed it here. I practically stole my T, got it for barely over half the already below-market asking price but it was at te sellers insistence since I was the only one to look at it without mentioning parting it out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Monday, May 01, 2017 - 11:10 pm:

HeadDrive
Is this correct for a 1914?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Monday, May 01, 2017 - 11:13 pm:



It has this along with the coil box?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Monday, May 01, 2017 - 11:17 pm:

Moto


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Monday, May 01, 2017 - 11:22 pm:

Corey, you asked about the number of fender rivets, is this what you were referring too?

Fender


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Monday, May 01, 2017 - 11:24 pm:

Running boards
Left
Right


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Monday, May 01, 2017 - 11:28 pm:

I really can't read the letters but think it is Dixie or Nixie, hoping someone recognizes this as a clue to the truck body?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Monday, May 01, 2017 - 11:31 pm:

Cool exhaust, is it a ford exhaust?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Monday, May 01, 2017 - 11:37 pm:

Hood the hood is aluminum but I'm not familiar with this extra little piece at all four latches.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Madison on Monday, May 01, 2017 - 11:56 pm:

The cross emblem is the Mark for Martin-Perry Bodies and the extra piece on the hood is where the hood hold downs go


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Madison on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 12:00 am:

Martin Parry not Perry have had produce wagon bodys in the past with same stamped parts and original labels good luck on purchasing


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 12:01 am:

DriversPass closedPass openContractorRim
I don't think these are correct rims for a 1914. The contractor sign is the only new wood I'm aware of. The cab is a single door only opening on the passenger side. And the wheel base measures about 99".
Have I forgotten anything?
Thank you all again, I spoke with the owner tonight and shared everything that has been posted Thus far, although he was disappointed in the value, he still said he would like to see me give it a new home. As I had stated earlier, this is an old friend of mine and the more information I can glean from you Including additional thoughts on value from the added photos, will help determine an agreeable price. Remember it has not run in years and there currently is no title. Ned.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Madison on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 12:11 am:

as for Oregon you take it to dmv they check it in the system if nothing shows then it goes to O.S.P for a vin inspection . The inspection station at Clackamas has a copy of Bruces book with vin. productions to go by- provided by Me to help them figure out a real T from a Hot rod has saved me a lot of time in getting titles-have had 30 plus Ts in the last 20 years


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 12:15 am:

Ned, more things point to it being later than 1914. The pedals are not lettered CRB, they are not ribbed like 1915, so perhaps 1916 or later. The diff centre is the later type introduced with the 1915 cars. If the brake backing plates have reinforcing ribs cast into them, they are later too. The open pinion bearing spool with the exposed bolts is later again.

None of this is critical to the operation of the car or its appearance. It looks more likely to have been built up with parts from various years. To me, the value is in the Martin Parry body, if that is what it is. The wrong date bits can be changed out if that is what rows your boat. Just not worth paying a premium for a 'Correct' 1914 car.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Madison on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 12:31 am:

Ned go to the Home page and look under literature at the Martin - Parry cat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 12:32 am:

Thank you Matt for the information, I see it now.
Allen, the engine number is 291242, that seems like an early number? Can someone confirm the year?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 12:53 am:

The louvered aluminum hood is 1915, and you're right about the wheels. Those are later. The tiny picture size makes most of the speedometer face unreadable, but it appears to be an early 1913 Model 100.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 01:10 am:

Martin-Parry was one of the larger aftermarket body makers "back in the day." They made very good bodies, and are somewhat preferred by lots of folks. I think there are some pictures online, just "goggle" Martin-Parry. Since cowls/hoods are adapted to the body, one could put earlier hoods/radiators on a car for the "early" look. It's fairly obvious that most of the car is not '14 so, consider that when "dickering."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 01:17 am:

Ned-
Engine 291,242 is June 4, 1913 production.
If so, it would have no starter or generator.
It looks like the clutch pedal is ribbed (1915) Is the transmission cover aluminum?

The differential is from the 1920s
The demountable wheels are from the 1920's. Are the spokes wood or accessory steel spokes?

The extra box on the dash looks like a New York master vibrator. You will not use it after you rebuild your coils.

The coilbox is from 1915-1917.

The speedometer is a Stewart & Clark Model C from early 1913.

I can't see details of the lamps, but they are of the 1913-1914 type, as well as the acetylene generator.

The boot scraper TT running boards are from 1926-1927.

The rear fenders are not Ford. They might be Martin-Parry. The Martin Parry truck bodies were designed for TT trucks, but I have seen them on standard Chassis before.

I like the combination cutout/muffler !

I will bring the Strobo-spark Thursday.

-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 01:18 am:

By the way, that engine serial number indicates it's a 1913 with an assembly date of Friday, June 13, 1913.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 02:03 am:

Ned, if the engine number is original to that block, it should have screw-in freeze plugs with the square hollow drive. It may also have a lip at the back of the block which mirrors the lip on the cylinder head. I was under the impression that the engine number boss on the earlier blocks was not as wide as this one appears. Also, the number font does not look quite right. That may be because I am used to Canadian engine numbers. Can you find a casting date anywhere?

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 02:56 am:

M-P rear fenders are almost made of unobtainium!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 05:20 am:

It appears to be an early engine number on a later block. That style serial number embossment was not used on blocks until about 1916, and maybe the '17 change. So either there is another digit not seen, or it is a later replacement block. Check to see if it made for mounting a generator or not on the manifold side. Also look for the casting date behind where the serial number is located.
Martin-Parry truck bodies are probably the most desirable of all the original after-market truck bodies. They were made in a wide variety of styles, and for many different sized chassis. They were offered ready-made to fit the standard model T chassis. Some of them came with fenders similar to these, surviving originals are very rare.
The fenders lead to another observation. The running boards. As I said before, and a couple have commented since. Could these be the '26/'27 "boot-scraper" TT running boards? I don't see the "Ford" script. I am not a TT expert, but all earlier TT trucks I have looked at had the "Ford" script. I thought the '26/'27 did also? The chassis appears to be missing the rear pair of running board brackets. That was done on some after-market bodied small trucks. Often, the rear bracket was moved forward for a stronger short running board.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 10:19 am:

Thank you all once again for your replies, all good stuff.
The fact that the cowl bolted to the wood cab appears to have always been a match, can we assume the cab body was built for an earlier car, didn't the cowl change in 1917 with a taller radiator?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 10:23 am:

I have a Friday the 13th engine? Should I refer to the vehicle as Jason, drive it wearing a hockey mask, and carry chainsaws in the back?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 10:25 am:

So did you make an offer? Is it yours now? The suspense is killing me!

Inquiring minds need to know... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 10:34 am:

Ned:

That's a 1915-16 hood former on the truck.

If the truck body was originally on a 1917-23 Ford, the outline of the 1917-23 firewall and the two bolt holes would match the outline and two bolt holes of the 1915-16 firewall.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 10:42 am:

Ned,

I like absolutely everything about this truck! It's a very cool item. Don't be too dissuaded at the number of different model years represented here. It was a work truck and things got used up, worn out, and replaced. That was all most likely done at a time when nobody cared about using a "correct" rear end, etc. It's all part of the truck's work history. Hope you get it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 10:48 am:

Mark, We have not made a deal yet, I feel there are too many variables to sort out.

Erik, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about the difference between the 15-16 vs the 17-23?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 11:05 am:

The photo you first posted of the engine, looks to be pre 1919 non starter type block. The pan is the narrow nose type and there looks to be an outside oilier that dumps into the oil filler opening (both are +'s). You can narrow down the when the engine was made by looking just behind the water inlet, there will be a date code in a circle on the block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 11:06 am:

Ned:

The cowls on 1915-23 Fords are basically the same.

The outline of a 1915-16 hood former and a 1917-23 firewall are the same. Also, the two body bolt holes on a 1915-16 firewall and a 1917-23 wood firewall line up the same.

For example, you can very easily put a 1915-16 hood former on a 1917 Ford and install a brass radiator and a 1916 or earlier hood.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 11:15 am:

Ned,

You're getting too much excellent advice. Don't get overwhelmed trying to decipher it all.

Bottom line. It's a very nice truck that has some parts replaced that are not specific to a given year. Guess what; that's most Model T's. The whole package is really cool. If you can find a price fit between you and the owner you'll have a very nice truck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 08:11 pm:

I can nit-pick almost any car to pieces if I want to. Generally, I do not want to, and I certainly know that not one of the cars I have ever owned was good enough to withstand that kind of serious criticism.
My (as well as others here) point up to now, has been to give some information that really should be understood and considered.
That said. This is a basically unique and special part of automotive history. ONLY YOU can answer the questions of what you want in an antique car? And what do you want from it? In addition, what can you afford? These are critical questions for anybody considering a vehicle such as this, especially a new-comer.
Beyond that. This truly is the kind of vehicle that you may never see available again. More than most, by far, this is the kind of antique vehicle that one could regret not getting for the rest of his life. If it is what you want, and can afford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 08:23 pm:

Here is a photo of the date cast in the block, looks like 23 13. Would that be 23 week of 1913?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 08:29 pm:

I can only repeat what Jerry Van said!!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 08:30 pm:

Seeing your latest pictures I think its a nicer truck than I first thought. I don't think it makes a hoot if its 1914 or 1915 or what. I don't think I would worry too much about the title. Getting one might be a hassle but it can be done.

I think I will bump my value to $5000.

If you want the truck, then that is what is important. Looks like a bath and a little TLC and you could have it on the road. See what you can negotiate. Better to pay a little extra than to let it pass and regret it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Matt Madison on Tuesday, May 02, 2017 - 08:49 pm:

Your casting date and veh. build date can be different engine could have been cast then shipped to assembly plant through out the U.S the important number is the engine number for D.M.V


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, May 03, 2017 - 12:28 am:

Ooh! I can't wait for Thursday!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 11:34 am:

Ned,

Did you get the truck?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 11:50 am:

Ned

That block in the truck isn't a '13.

Here is 1914 block, showing casting date, and showing the 'short' length boss for stamping of engine numbers.






For contrast, here is a 1917 block, with casting date, and now see how much longer is the boss for engine numbers as production quantity increased, so did the length of that boss!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 11:16 am:

I have not purchased the truck yet. My next step will be to trailer it to DMV to begin the title stuff and more than likely it will then end up in my shop from there. We haven't discussed price and not sure I'm ready to make an offer. I really like the look of the truck but seems more and more that it has been made up of multiple years. The multiple years does not bother me but it would not bring the same money if it were to be all original. At this point all I really know is, I like the looks, the cab is solid, and it will need work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 11:23 am:

Ned,

"The multiple years does not bother me but it would not bring the same money if it were to be all original."

Possibly true to some extent, but it's really that big a factor on price.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 11:37 am:

Fiddle around in indecisive mode long enough, and someone else
will step in and make the decision for you by making an offer and
trailering it off to THEIR shop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 11:41 am:

I had the same thought, Burger. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 11:44 am:

Burger nailed it.

Make an offer and see what kind of deal you can make.

If it were closer I think I would make an offer. It would make a really neat truck for my grandson!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 04:11 pm:

Some of what Burger post i think is out there,but this one speaks volumes!!!!!!!!!!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 11:45 pm:

Send me the contact information and this little teapot will be
in my shop before you have a chance to ask "What happened?"

This wretched little beast is one of those period creations that
rarely survived without someone f$#ing it up with a restoration
or "over-polish". You can find ordinary T's anywhere you look.
This one is SPECIAL ! Pull the trigger and save another "Otis"
from the brass polishing/restoration drones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, May 11, 2017 - 10:51 am:

Well poop, what I meant to say above was, "... it's really NOT that big a factor on price."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, May 11, 2017 - 10:54 am:

Oh yes, what Burger said too!

P.S.

You're an interesting guy Burger. Sometimes I want to choke you, and sometimes I want to shake your hand. Have you ever experienced that before? ;>) All in fun, hope you understand.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Thursday, May 11, 2017 - 11:37 am:

Buy it, make it a safe driver and leave it just the way it looks. It's perfect as is. You could take this to any car show anywhere and people will walk right by a dozen Stynoski level restored "original" cars with barely a glance and come up to you to talk about this truck. I can guarantee this by personal experience. You post the contact info on this thing and it will be gone in minutes. There are people who would pay ten grand for it. Only time can create this masterpiece. Remember that estimates offered reflect what guys would like to buy it for, not necessarily the actual value in the market. Good luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Mc Willie on Thursday, May 11, 2017 - 12:24 pm:

I agree with what people are saying about this being a really "special" Model T. Don't wait too long or it will be gone. The more you publicize it the more likely someone might know where the truck is and scoop it up. Go for it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ned Brainard on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 09:46 am:

Deal is done!
Will post photo's when I pick it up.
Thank you all for your comments.
Ned


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 09:49 am:

Woohoo! Congratulations. :-O


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 10:05 am:

Super.
Now you have another set of coils to rebuild and you can disconnect that master vibrator.

: ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 11:38 am:

Well done. Keep us posted on progress.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 11:50 am:

Ned,Good on ya and post many pictures!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 09:12 pm:

Ditto, ditto, ditto!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Saturday, May 13, 2017 - 10:08 am:

Yesss!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, May 15, 2017 - 10:05 am:

Excellent! Good for you!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Strickling on Monday, May 15, 2017 - 10:40 am:

If you empty out the inside of that master vibrator, it leaves a nice little box for sunglasses or registration paperwork or cigars or whatever.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Monday, May 15, 2017 - 02:12 pm:

Going back to the original post ... "What do I offer ?"

After considerable thought, I have decided that you should offer to let
me have this hideous mess of a truck and drive the wheels off it. As
an ambassador of the hobby, I think it is the least I can do to offer to
give it a good home. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willis Jenkins on Monday, May 15, 2017 - 03:21 pm:

What to offer???

It's all about ethics, educating the seller and some bible verse!

Willis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Monday, May 15, 2017 - 09:05 pm:

Willis,

This thread involves humor, so you may want to adjust your vitriolic hat
or attend those court mandated anger management meetings. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willis Jenkins on Monday, May 15, 2017 - 09:55 pm:

Oh, trust me, Burger, I had quite the laugh when I posted!

Cheers,
Willis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Monday, May 15, 2017 - 11:08 pm:

Good. Then we are in a better mood now ? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willis Jenkins on Monday, May 15, 2017 - 11:38 pm:

Now pass me another whiskey! Hell, Burger, I'll even buy you one!

Cheers,
Willis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Tuesday, May 16, 2017 - 12:03 am:

Sounds like a plan. I have some Maker's Mark in the freezer.
One shot, or two ?


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