Toe in question ....

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Toe in question ....
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 11:58 am:

I have been checking our 27 touring over for an upcoming tour. I checked the toe in today and have 7/16 toe in. I know it should have 1/4 inch. So that leaves me with 3/16 to much toe in. The only way to change the toe in will be to take one full revolution of the tie rod shortening its length. If I remember right, one full revolution put the toe in too close to zero toe in for my liking. So I think I settled on 7/16 inch instead of aprox 1/8 inch. I think the 7/16 inch measurement is OK. It may wear my tires a little more, but the car already feels like it "wanders" a little bit. Everything is "new and tight" so Im just afraid to get it less than a 1/4 inch on toe in. A 1/2 turn would be perfect, but because the threads on the tie rod yolks need to be on the bottom side, that is not possible. Just checking to see what the concensus is on the 7/16 inch toe in measurement is .....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 12:07 pm:

I'm just going from memory here, but I was thinking one revolution equated to about 1/8"? If so, that would put you at 5/16" which would be about perfect.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 12:13 pm:

One revolution changes the length of the tie rod about 0.040. By the time you figure in the distance from center of the arms and the movement at the o.d. of the tires, I'd have to think Hal's 1/8" is about right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Jefferson, Ohio on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 12:18 pm:

When I'm in my '27 Touring I keep all 10 toes in! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Blake, Kansas City on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 12:50 pm:

No direct experience with setting toe on a model T, but if everything is as you say, "new and tight" I would think you could go with your toe setting on the low side. My understanding of the need for toe in is in order to allow for all of the various clearances in steering and suspension components to be taken up by the rolling resistance of the tires, resulting in front wheels running very close to straight ahead when going down the road, dynamically speaking. If that is wrong, I'm sure someone will set me straight. ;)

Conversely, in the early days of front wheel drive, most cars had a spec for toe OUT since the front wheels were of course pulling the car forward.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 01:02 pm:

Whether the wheels should be closer together in the front center area or the back center area is often a question that is not understood.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Doolittle on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 01:08 pm:

Specs on toe in state 3/16" to 1/4".
See ford Illustration http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40382.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 01:42 pm:

OK, Ill take the tie rod loose and turn it one turn and see what I get as a new measurement. Hal and Walter are probably correct. I have slept too many days since I set the toe in originally. The front end has a few hundred miles on it since I re-built it. But there is no play to speak off anywhere. You can see a very little "wiggle" in a few points, but not enough to say it is more than normal "fit up" clearances. I drove the car yesterday about 40 miles on highway. It just seemed to "wander" a little more than I liked. But I am not used to long drives on pavement. I think one of the days of our tour is over 100 miles and most of it is on pavement. Its not bad as it is, I just thought I should check it out... So back to the shop I go. Thanks for the input ....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 01:48 pm:

Excessive toe-in won't cause wander. Caster / camber issues will. You're in to bending the axle (or checking for other twisted components) at that point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 01:58 pm:

I just did this recently, and I think Hal's estimate of 1/8" per turn is about right. If so, two turns should do it.

If these were old wood wheels I'd suggest wobble (runout) as a possible contributor to wandering, but I assume we're talking about the touring with the yellow wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 02:20 pm:

Running this through AutoCAD with a 24 t.p.i tie rod and 31" o.d. (30 x 3) tire, one revolution comes out right at 1/8" at the tread. Hal wins the prize!

(Message edited by Wmh on April 27, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 06:33 pm:

That was a very lot of work, just to turn something one turn... :-( :-( :-) :-). Now I have 3/16 inch of toe in. Im going to try it out tomorrow. Its been raining and is a muddy mess right now.... It appears that one full turn changed my toe in at the wheels 1/4 inch. I do have a little wobble in my wire wheels. one wheel wobbles about 1/8 inch and the other is about 3/16 inch wobble. The wobble is measured at the tire and not at the wheel rim. I believe that is within Ford tolerance. I think about half of the wobble is in the wheel and the other half is in the tire. The car was driving OK for a T, but since the tour is a lot of highway miles I thought it best to give the front end a good inspection. Thanks again for the input....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 08:56 pm:

Glad you got it sorted out. Wish we could account for why you get 1/4" movement. Is the thread pitch on later tie rods different? I was measuring an early one.



(Message edited by Wmh on April 27, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 09:34 pm:

Walter, Did you take into consideration the difference between the tie rod length placement and the length in relation to the front of the tires. (I think I said that right ??)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Thursday, April 27, 2017 - 09:46 pm:

Yes, that's why I was being lazy and ran it through AutoCAD. Took measurements off a car I have here.

I started to post before that the 1/8" was only one end thereby making your 1/4" the cumulative total, but I went back and checked how I got the measurement and the 1/8" is cumulative. It's a 1/16" at each end.

If I wasn't lazy I'd try it on the car here with real measurements, but it drives too nice and I'm not yet that motivated!

(Message edited by Wmh on April 27, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Friday, April 28, 2017 - 09:33 am:

Donnie -- Use a pen or pencil to make marks on the tread and use those to make your measurements. That will take wheel/tire wobble out of the equation. One turn should net you 1/8" of difference (not 1/4"), as others have stated. Call me if you need more info on how to do the marks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer --- Klaaswaal NL on Friday, April 28, 2017 - 11:13 am:

Donnie ; here are some pictures perhaps you can use them.
Toon
0093S
0094M
0095S


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, April 28, 2017 - 01:21 pm:

All you need to know about toe in





Put your left toe in
Take your left toe out
Put your left foot in and shake it all about
Do the hokey pokey and turn yourself about
That's what it's all about.

Or you could --

Put your right toe in
Take your right toe out
Put your left foot in and shake it all about
Do the hokey pokey and turn yourself about
That's what it's all about.


The remainder of my thoughts are a bit hokey!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Friday, April 28, 2017 - 03:03 pm:

Anthonie and Mike. That is how I did my measurements. I was able to mark the tire itself with an ink pen. The mark stayed on one of the treads of the Firestone tires. The mark varied from side to side of that individual tread and indicated the amount of "wobble" in my tire/wheel assembly. I can not account for why one turn changed me from 7/16 inch to 3/16 inch runout. I was very careful to make sure I did only one complete turn. Just from memory, I believe those are the same measurements I had when I originally re-built the front end and set the toe-in. I have always used 1/4 inch as my toe-in setting for all straight axle assemblies I have ever rebuilt. So I think I chose to "ere" on the side of "too much" toe-in instead of "to little". But I have slept too many times since then, and with my "old timers" working overtime, its just a guess.... :-) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Friday, April 28, 2017 - 03:13 pm:

How many threads per inch on the tie rod?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Friday, April 28, 2017 - 08:12 pm:

After marking your tires, you should let the car down and roll it back and forth a foot or two to let things "settle in" before taking the measurements.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Friday, April 28, 2017 - 10:48 pm:

Walter, Im not sure of the threads per inch. Mike I did the measurements with it on the floor. I did not rock it back and forth, but I always grab the tires and shake them before measuring. That's similar to your method. Your method may work better to settle things into place. Ill try it next time. Its still too muddy to get the car out of the shop for a test drive, and we are supposed to get up to 7 inches of rain this weekend. :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas - Centerville, Iowa on Friday, April 28, 2017 - 11:43 pm:

Now think about this. Do you want your toe in to be correct when the car is on jack stands, or when you have rolled it back and forth a few times, when you have made a mark all the way around the tire and hope your mark is even all the way around? Or do you just want the toe in to be set correctly while you are driving down the road?

To allow for all the little bits of play in the complete steering system, you will check it just going straight down the road.

In order to do that, just do the following. Take two pieces of tape, about 2 inches long. Put one on each tire, roughly the same height on the front edge of each tire. Make a pencil mark on each piece of tape. Measure the distance between the marks. Roll the car forward, until the pieces of tape are now at the back side of the tire, roughly the same height. Now measure the distance. Hopefully the rear measurement is about 1/4 inch more than the front measurement.

This method takes all the play out of the system. It only requires two pieces of tape, a marker, a tape measure and someone who can read it.

This method was explained to me by a gentleman who advises every tire and truck manufacturer on how to align their equipment. It works everytime.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer --- Klaaswaal NL on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 04:30 am:

Michael T ; how does that work when there is a wobble in one or two of the front wheels ????
Toon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gary hammond-Forest, Va on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 05:13 am:

Fred that's the hokiest post I've ever seen.....lol


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 05:33 am:

My old "beater" 25 coupe was wearing out the front tires three times as fast as the rear tires. I had measured the tow in by myself a couple of times and thought that I had it just right. Finally, I had my Grandson help me and I found out that the toe in was 1/8" out. One turn on the tie rod and it was just where it should be. On my T, one turn of the tie rod end is 1/8 of an inch. JMHO Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Dizer on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 06:32 am:

As a mechanic who did alignments for 40 years, too much toe will make a car "dart"while driving. If you can visualize the position of the tires as you are driving on the road, one is going pretty much straight ahead and the other is being drug a bit sideways. They rarely are equal, it's one or the other. When the drug tire gets a bit more traction due to road surface, bumps, or liquid, it straightened out, and the other side is now being drug! This will cause a wandering or darting problem. Camber, is the lean, in or out , at the top of the tire, and is measured in degrees. If the top of the tire is leaning out, or away from the car, that is "positive " camber. The car will have a steady "pull" towards the side with the most positive camber. Due to the crown in the roads, many cars carry just a bit more positive camber on the left side to counter the road being angled to the right. To our friends who drive on the wrong side of the road, this would be reversed as well! Caster is the angle of the axle spindle measured in degrees, of the top of the kingpin to the bottom. If you hold a straightedge directly in line with the kingpin, looking at the wheel from the side, if the top of straightedge is leaning to the rear, that is positive caster. Uneven caster from side to side can cause a steady pull as well. It will pull to the side with the most positive caster. Caster is used to help the vehicle return to straight ahead, after a turn, and to give the steering a more "solid" feel. If your car "wanders" and the tow in is correct, adding a bit more caster can help. On mid and late sixties Chrysler products made with bias tires,but now having radial tires, more caster really helps the way they drive!

It is very important to make your measurements with the full weight of the vehicle on the tires, and be sure all of the tires are inflated equally. After you set the car down or have made any adjustments, roll the car back and forth a bit to let the tires to move on the ground and take their normal position.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas - Centerville, Iowa on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 08:22 am:

The "wobble factor" is present in any method you employ. If you have a lot of wobble, spin the tire and pick a "good spot" on each tire, mark and measure from there.

William Dizer's post is very good. You need the weight of the car on the wheels, proper inflation, and roll the car forward, so that the steering system is running just like it is going down the road.

All of this comes from Mike Beckett of MD Alignment. He consults for tire manufacturers, and every big truck manufacturer. I picked up all of my tips attending his seminar at the Louisville Truck show a few years back, and I bought his book, a great resource.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 08:51 am:

Have always used the simple Ford Service Bulletin method with good results. Handling fine, and no excess front tread wear.



Purchased this alignment tool years ago, simple telescopic tubes, spring loaded with lock for adj. set, and marked lines for the amount of difference at front and back of each felloe to felloe. The spring loaded tubes are nice for one-man setting, and sharp points on the ends lock fast to the metal felloe.





Then just position on the same centerline for the rear and the front. The centerline is imaginary line thru the spindle. Move the measure tool from rear to front, to check the correct amount of toe-end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 09:38 am:

Dan, I do that similarly, but just with a pair of yardsticks and two small clamps to keep 'em together. Sure, it's not 100% spot on, but given the tolerance allowed, like yours, it works well every time. I just "stretch" the yardsticks on the front, clamp, take away and measure the length. Repeat at the rear, same height above the floor. Compare distances between the two, and adjust accordingly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 09:40 am:

But Dan, you're showing the gauge on the rim, not the felloe. :-)

And that setup will work correctly only if the wheels are true, without any wobble. Most of us are not working with new wheels these days.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 10:14 am:

Even most new wheels are not without run-out on the felloe if you get down and put an indicator on them. Most people would scoff that 0.032 measured with an indicator means much, but that's 1/16" difference between front and back and you still don't know how the wheel is actually tracking. Even too much epoxy / body filler / primer on a felloe can throw it off that much. A scribed single-point line on the tread is still the ticket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 02:58 pm:

Yes, I doubt that many "new" wheels truly ran true. Ford's method, as shown by Dan, probably was "close enough" when the cars were new and no one drove more than 25 mph. Few of us do that today. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas - Centerville, Iowa on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 04:14 pm:

If you mark a spot on each tire, when it is facing forward, measure the distance, then roll the car forward, until that spot is facing rearward, and measure the distance, won't that take out the wobble factor?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 04:42 pm:

I have one of the "toe sticks" similar to Dan's tool. I have used it before and it works good, but Im with Walter and Mike about it not taking into account the "wobble effect" . My personal preference is to scribe a line when spinning the tires. Then measure front and rear with the tires sitting on the ground. I do see where the rolling of the car forward will help to settle things into the driving position. Lots of good suggestions and input from everyone, Thanks ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 08:15 pm:

"If you mark a spot on each tire, when it is facing forward, measure the distance, then roll the car forward, until that spot is facing rearward, and measure the distance, won't that take out the wobble factor?"

Michael T. -- I've been thinking about this since you posted this morning, trying to determine whether that method would eliminate the "wobble factor." I'm usually pretty good at visualizing things, but I'm having trouble figuring this one out. If we were working with accurately-made wheels, like the big truckers are using, that method would work. But I'm not sure it would work with a wheel which has some wobble. I guess I'll need to try it both ways to be sure. If it turns out that the results are the same both ways, I'll be convinced. Not trying to start an argument; just can't quite grasp all the things which come into play here with wobbly wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Thomas - Centerville, Iowa on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 11:07 pm:

The wobble, or distance from true center, at a particular point on the wheel, will not change as the wheel moves around the hub. In other words, the wobble will occur at the same place each revolution of the wheel.

For instance, jack the wheel up, place a piece of chalk along side the wheel. Spin the wheel. Slowly move the chalk in until it just touches the wheel at some point, (the wobble) Chalk will mark the tire in the same spot each time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Saturday, April 29, 2017 - 11:28 pm:

I was contemplating the wobble effect as well when doing the toe in adjustment. My fronts probably have about an 1/8th to 3/16th wobble on each. Would it be best to find the most outward part of each tire and do the measurement from there, or maybe split the difference between them, and then adjust?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Sunday, April 30, 2017 - 12:09 am:

John, just scribe the tire (as shown in Toon's post above) and the wobble is irrelevant as you're working off the axis.


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