I was looking at Mark Herdmans frame drawings when I realized that the square holes identify the frame years. Hope this helps
1909 to 1913 short rear cross member
Mid 1913 to early 1915 no square holes
Early 1915 to 1916 two square holes top of each rail
1917 to mid 1919 5 square holes top of each rail
Mid 1919 to late 1919 5 square holes on drivers side four on the passenger side
Late 1919 to mid 1920 5 square holes on each side
Mid 1920 to early 1923 four square holes each side
Early 1923 to late 1925 3 square holes each side
Early 1926 to end of production long rear cross member three square hole each side
I have one 1917 and one from 1920
All of the square holes are on the top of the frame rails at the front side
Mark..nice info. However in May 1913 the rear cross member was lengthened in order to eliminate the use of the separate forged body bracket. Just FYI. You don't mention anything about square holes 1909-1913, unless you were inferring they were on the rear cross member?
Mark, Thanks for that great short cut hint on determining frame years! It's really nice when you know a trick which you can remember to know the correct part.
There are no square holes on 1909 through 1913 frames with short cross members. I am still a novice model T Person. I just noticed this pattern of square holes
Thanks for the clarification Mark. I'm gonna bookmark this for future reference, I'm still (& always) learning, and unfortunately I suffer from "CRS"!
Mark,l never thought about dating frames by the square holes.A-OK,except the 09-13 rear crossmember has a square hole to center the spring bolt.
this id system is awesome....always looking for ways to verify the build date, (registered as a '19 )but the engine and carb are '20...whereas the body and drivetrain steering wheel all point to '19...my primary concern is in misrepresenting the car to others, wish i knew something of its history....
FWIW this frame is a 1914. It had clips for acetylene and the wide rear cross member. The "S" on the front cross member is the only marking on it. I don't know what other years carried the "S".
Very nice detective work, and good thoughts about those little square holes on the upper frame rail, they are for carriage bolts that hold the hood shelves and fenders and wiring clips!
I really like your listing of frame years!
Have an early '20's frame am working on, has the battery tray, and was stamped at the factory with "Coupe", so battery was certain, and has rear cross member holes for spare rim carrier,
..and has the forged running board bracket set of 3 holes,
Now with the Mark Method , counted up 5 little square holes on driver's and passenger's side of both tops of the frame rails....
...and wonders, the frame is Late '19 to Mid '20. Spot on I.D.
John,your car could be completely original with that mix of parts.
The assembly plants used things up as they came to them.
A 1919 style steering wheel could well have been at the back of the warehouse or where ever.
I know the whereabouts of an absolutely original,low miles(was drven only a week or two) '23 slant windshield roadster.It was bought as a present for a grand daughter.A big family fight ensued over who was getting preferential treatment,etc.,etc.
The Old Man 'got damn good and mad'and had it sealed up in the 'automobile house',and that is where it is,right now.And will be,''till Gabriel toots'.
It has the closed spool,maleable rear end pinion housing,and matching axle housings.Apparently,some of these were uncovered somewhere and used in production.As has been said before,how can you restore the right when Ford did not build them right?
Sounds like a better-preserved car than the Rip Van Winkle one. Apparently you can get inside the "automobile house" to verify those details?
Pics, man pics!!
Jim, thanks for the info...the majority of the car is so well preserved, it would be easy to belief it's as factory
built. the engine number would be a 17 July 1920 build, wish I knew how it came to be registered as a '19....anyone know how to trace build date by body numbers ?? Mine is a center door sedan, if it makes a difference. Thank you
David,oh how I wish I could get pictures of that car.
If I were not a distant relative of this family,I would not have got as far as l did.However,in the unlikely event that farm were ever sold,I am supposed to be consulted on what to do with all that is there.My vote would be to make it into a museum of early 20th Century farm life.
Either someone drilled out some of my square holes (doesn't appear to be so) or my frame is an exception to the rule that is shown above. My frame has 2 square holes on the top of each rail, has holes for the stamped running board supports - none on the side for the earlier supports, and four holes for the quadrant. The frame is not original as it is made up of a bunch of extra parts that I had. It is also stamped P & B. Anyone have a guess on the year of it?
Correction - the car is not original as it is made up of extra parts. The frame is NOT made of a bunch of parts
As I recall, there are two different rear crossmembers for '26-7.
I just went through this frame thing for two different cars I own. The first is an early style '13 frame. There were a dozen additional holes drilled over the years that I had to weld up. The second is for a 1917 coupe I bought last year. That body is on a '22 chassis, and I was very lucky indeed to find a '17-18 frame for it, not far away either. There is much to learn on this subject, but it's all worthwhile.