Fitting the hood, sliding the body back?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Fitting the hood, sliding the body back?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 04:15 pm:

My hood does not fit by a little less than half an inch.

Hood off by half inch.
Hood off by half inch.

My radiator rod is also off by the same amount. We have moved the radiator as far as we think we can forward. We think the body is half an inch too far forward? Is that possible? I am told that there are 6 bolts holding the body on. Could there be enough 'play' for it to go back a half inch? Is there anything else I can try?

Firewall body junction:

Firewall body junction.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 04:22 pm:

Firwwall bracckets backwards


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 04:37 pm:

Should say:firewall brackets backwards.They go on the back of the firewall.
There are also different brackets for wood and steel firewalls.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 05:15 pm:

And this may be a can of worms.I am trying to visualize what all else,and how,things were shifted around to allow the body to slide that far forward.
Hope all somebody did was oval out holes on brackets on body or frame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 08:11 pm:

Ignacio,figured out what,to do here yet?
Part of me says leave 'er bee.
Whoever put that body on there like that almost surely went through a considerable supply of profanity.
Not to mention prying around under the car lying on their back with long tapered punches in the body mount holes.As well as having their wife tightening up those long bolts through the firewall to pull the body forward while he ia under there,cussing,trying to get body bolts in.
That is,until he says something to piss her off,and she throws the wrench down on the garage floor,and it ricochets and hits him in the temple......
You may also get lucky,annd he bolted the body on with little bolts because he could not get the right size to fit...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 08:20 pm:

Ignatio, those firewall brackets look to have the off-set required for fitting a wooden firewall, which is 3/4" thick. If you get the correct ones for a steel firewall, that will put the firewall back most of that 3/4", and then your hood will fit well.This will effectively mean the body needs to be shifted back that same distance, but going by the gap shown at the bracket, that may not be needed.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 08:34 pm:

But,Allan,there does not appear to be a gap at the top.
Yes,they do look like they are wood firewall brackets.And they are on the wrong side.Northern hemisphere,at least😀.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 09:06 pm:

Here is a picture of a 23 and the firewall bracket which is correctly mounted below. I'm learning here so indulge me. Are you saying that the bracket he has is for a wood firewall? An if so it is mounted backwards? Are the brackets on my 23 the type he needs? Thanks for teaching me. I not very good with the modern T models.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 09:18 pm:

All l can think is,l must have had a light stroke.
I have been so bassackwards and upside down lately on some things,it is down right embarrassing.This is a good example.
No,the damn firewall brackets are not backwards.My brain is.

The brackets for a steel firewall have a square hole for the carriage bolt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 09:23 pm:

Is the shortness at both the top and the bottom of the hood, or just at the top? If it is at the bottom, the problem would be that the body needs to move back. You could try loosening all the bolts and push it back to see if you can get the clearance. It is also possible you have the wrong firewall brackets, but in your picture, they look correct. If you were to mount them behind the firewall, it would actually move the body forward instead of backward.

If the bottom of the hood fits, then the rod needs to be lengthened to move the top of the radiator forward. You will need to loosen the top hose to accomplish this.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Saylor, Citrus Heights, Ca on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 09:24 pm:

Langs has the correct firewall brackets., Not that expensive. I think you would have to see them side by side to tell wood vs steel. just order the right ones and put them on the correct side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 10:12 pm:

My Fordor had this problem and we had to take the sag out of the frame, check it.

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 10:20 pm:

Might be easier to move the radiator ahead by 1/2" or at least confirm that all is right with how it's attached.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 11:03 pm:

John T, Your brackets are mounted correctly. They go in front of the firewall. I have seen four distinct versions of the firewall brackets (not counting the earlier on top of frame brackets). The ones I show as Type 1 and Type 2 are for wood firewalls after the firewall bracket on top of the frame was discontinued . They both do the exact same function. The only difference is the angle and length of the slope. Probably just a manufacturing difference. I do not know for sure which one came first. Note that wood firewall brackets have a 3/4 inch offset. Then type 3 is the steel firewall bracket. It is easily distinguished by the very short slope. Type three fits 1923-25 steel firewalls. Note that the offset is 1/4 inch to 5/16 inch. Then type four is for 1926-27 Improved models. Note the notch in bracket is designed to work with the 1926-27 firewalls. Other than the notch the Type 4, 1926-27 firewall bracket is identical to the 1923-25 brackets, and also has the same 1/4 inch to 5/16 inch offset. . A 1926-27 bracket will work on a 1923-25 firewall, but a 1923-25 bracket will not work on a 1926-27 firewall. I believe that is the reason the repro brackets are made in the 1926-27 style. That way the repro brackets will work on 1923,24,25,26, and 27 cars and trucks. When the new style 1926-27 bracket became available, the old style 1923-25 bracket was discontinued, and only the newer 1926-27 style was made available for repair work. As mentioned above, another sign to look for is the "square holes" that are needed for the steel firewalls.

1

2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 11:07 pm:

Ignacio, It looks like you have a "long slope" wood firewall bracket on your steel firewall. I believe that is your major issue as to why you are off 1/2 inch ... You need to find a pair of 1923-25 style brackets or maybe buy the 1926-27 style repro brackets offered by the vendors. Either style should fix your problem ... have fun and be safe .... Donnie Brown ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John T. Tannehill III, Hot Coffee, MS on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 11:15 pm:

This is exactly why the forum is great. A learning tool beyond compare and the Professor Emeritus is us. Donnie I never would have thought that anyone would have all the examples and be able to speak to them and explain so clearly. Thanks so much makes perfect sense now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Saturday, May 06, 2017 - 11:55 pm:

Thanks Donnie, not sure if it is a type 1 or type 2. It just so happens that I have Lang's repros, pictured. The difference is very subtle. I will need to paint them to try them out.

Firewall bracket with repros.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 12:38 am:

Not that it matters for Ignacio since he has replacement brackets on hand, but if he didn't could he just put a 1/2" spacer block between the bracket and the firewall?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 01:04 am:

Tim, Yes he could. There is one other variation as to the way the brackets were used that I did not speak of. During the time that the low wood firewall was changing over to the low steel firewall, spacers were used. It seems that the very first low steel firewalls (late 1922 model) when they came out did not have a matching steel firewall bracket. So a wood firewall bracket was used with spacers for a month or so. The spacers look just like radiator thimbles, but they are made of thicker steel. As soon as the new firewall brackets for steel firewalls became available, they discontinued use of the spacer/thimbles. I never really thought about it, but if Ignacio's car has a low steel firewall, It may have originally used the thimbles. Ignacio, your profile shows you to have a 1924 car, but the windshield frame looks like the earlier style. Is your firewall a "high steel" or a "low steel" firewall.??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 01:08 am:

Donnie it is a low cowl. It was sold as a 1924 and I call it a 1924 but have been told that it is a late 22 early 23 body. It has a 1925 motor. It is really a parts salad with a 1913 differential and other quirks probably due to a sandwich crash in its history.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 01:42 am:

Ignacio. OK, that explains and changes things a little bit. You have three options to fix the problem.

1. You can use the style 3 steel firewall bracket.

2. You can use the 1926-27 style 4 firewall brackets (your Lang's repro pair)

3. Or you can make spacers to fit between the style 1 or 2 wood firewall brackets. They can be made from radiator thimbles ground to 1/2 inch thick.

Your easiest bet is to just use the Lang's repro pair.

I think when speaking of your car, I would suggest to start calling it a "late 1922 low steel firewall car". The late 22 early 23 transitional cars are one of the most confusing bodies to figure out. I had a late 22 low steel firewall car. It took me years of study, to finally get a grasp of all its little "quirks" When it is spoken of as a 1924, it can cause confusion. Even now I have to stop and think about all the little details of those transitional cars. The need to call it a "late 1922 low steel firewall car" only really applies when talking about details of the body, windshield, and hood. good luck with it working out, and have fun and be safe ... Donnie Brown ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 07:14 am:

Check if the cowl / hood fit is equal bad all the way from top down on both sides. Sagging of the frame by the rear engine mounts can mess up the hood fit too, but could be fixed while loosening the body bolts to move it to the rear - some shimming may be needed by the front body bracket. Just keep checking the door fit and adjust everything from the radiator back.
Good luck :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 07:58 am:

I think Rick gave you some info that you should listen to. If the gap at the top of the is less than the gap at the bottom then moving the body back may not fix things. The frame is likely sagging in the middle and you won't be able to really fix that correctly unless you take the body off and get the frame straight. A simple string pulled tight across the ends of the frame from front to back along the top surface will show you the problem. You might also discover that the doors don't close and that also is a symptom of the frame sagging.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 10:21 am:

I have a similar problem with my '25 roadster, but the only place the hood doesn't fit well is at the bottom. It wants to climb over the shell. Next, if my memory is correct, the holes for the brackets are round, not square, and the bolts go in from the inside, with the nuts on the firewall brackets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 10:26 am:

Thank you Donnie for posting the photo of the differences. I was just thinking along the same lines as I have three of the samples laying on the counter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 10:57 am:

I have s similar problem with my 24 coupe. Originally I made the hood shorter and it worked fine for a number of years. Now my hood repair has aged and I might get a new hood and correct the body position. Finding the correct mounting brackets seems like the way to go but there will be lots more work moving the body half an inch. Thanks to Donnie for the great explanation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 03:03 pm:

I just checked my 24 coupe with a metal firewall and it has style 2 with the long angled bit!!!!! Changing the bracket is easy but moving the body back 1/2" could take a while and require some finesse. Small bolts and big washers????


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims--Reed City,Mich. on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 03:56 pm:

Good grief!!! you do not move the body back it will make more problems. Find the real problem and correct it!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 04:19 pm:

I think Donnie Brown has it right when calling your car a late 22 with a low cowl body because that's what it looks like to most T guys who have a basic knowledge of Model T's.

A straight windshield Black era Model T is almost always a 17-22 year car with few exceptions going by the body to generally date a car.

The straight windshield is the first thing people will see to start dating your car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Sunday, May 07, 2017 - 11:43 pm:

@John Reagan my doors close with difficulty. I see this thread on fixing a sagging frame: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/123360.html Heat it and quench it on the bottom to tighten up the bottom of the beam chord?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ignacio Valdes on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 12:36 am:

I jacked it up on the frame just in front of the drivers seat and things began to fit much better. I think that confirms the sagging frame theory. So that means I have to take the body off then use chains or heat or both?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 08:48 am:

https://www.google.com/search?q=frame+straightening+mtfca&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS737US7 37&oq=frame+straightening+mtfca&aqs=chrome..69i57.9207j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UT F-8


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 09:43 am:

Ignacio, you can loosen the body to frame bolts and use shims to raise up the body off the frame. There are 6 body to frame brackets that hold the body to the frame.
Loosen the front 2 and the next 2 that are about halfway back from the front 2.

Adding washers under the front 2 brackets then a little less under the next 2 may raise the body enough to help straighten it out.

It depends on how much work you want to do the car to straighten the body lines out. Frame straightening or shimming.


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