Engine bottom end questions part 2

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Engine bottom end questions part 2
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Oak Park MI on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 10:58 pm:

Adding more photos of my engine teardown for comments and questions...


I wondered what this material was on the oil return line...


Turns out it was a piece of metal wrapped around a damaged spot on the line... Not much of a repair.


The crank...

what's left of the front babbit

what middle babbit??

rear babbit

magneto ring

I need to watch a couple videos and do so m e reading...how to clean the oil off... nicked winding OK? How to tighten up lose could.

transmission... how heavy is it??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 11:17 pm:

Oh Dennis. Oww. Oh oww. Oh my.
Nicked winding? You know what the notion will be, replace it with a rebuilt one. :-) I would replace it and I'm the worst one here for letting it be as original if it functions.
And there were spiders living in that messed up oil line? Pic #2.
There was a heckofalot of water in that crankcase last winter.
Oh my.
You're going to feel so much better after the rebuild! Then you can rip on that T! Spendy? Sure. Whatever.
Thank you for keeping us updated!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Oak Park MI on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 11:22 pm:

Lol... I think the spider looking thing is a glare from the flash. I could blow th feed Pugh the pip, but certainly wasn't clear... so, you might be right!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 11:25 pm:

Ya, I figured a glare but smarted off anyway.
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Wednesday, May 10, 2017 - 11:31 pm:

Dennis, seems like you have a total rebuild in front of you, thanks for posting the updates. As with all the other things that will need replacing, I would definitely add the Mag coil to the list of things you should also have rebuilt, It will save you a lot of misery and grief in the long run when it finally does give up the ghost, which it probably will. Best of luck on your project, and keep the pics of your project coming....We love pics. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, May 11, 2017 - 04:57 am:

Main bearings are almost as bad as any I have ever seen in a block that was considered to be generally rebuildable. From the looks of the scoring on the crank shaft, the rods must be similarly bad. My guess would be that the engine was run out of oil. I would not recommend trying to use that crank shaft as anything more than a paperweight or picket fence post. The camshaft looks pretty good, but only measuring the lobes can say for certain.
The oil line was likely hit by the connecting ron flying around there (one of those weird engine knocks that drive people crazy trying to find it. Since the damage was patched, it is unlikely the damage led to the oil loss. But from what you say, it may be partially plugged which may have been a contributing factor.

The field coil is one of those things where strong opinions differ. However, your financial realities may need to be the leading factor for what you do. The one damaged spot appears to be the usual starter gear mistake. Otherwise? It looks very nice for an original. Photos aren't good enough, should be carefully inspected and tested. If that nick looks okay (?) and the rest of it looks up close as nice as the photos show? It could be a good candidate to clean and seal the nick. Then run it!
The risk is, that there is always a potential for insulation breakdown, or wire ribbon fracture and break, inside any of those sixteen coil packs. That is an unfriendly reality, to rebuild so much, assemble, install, get it all done and a month later the magneto quits. That is a tough pill to swallow. Reason enough to get one of the rebuilt mag coils from someone that knows what they are doing.
That nicked coil, may or may not be usable without major repair. Look to make sure the nick is not too deep, and that the ribbons are not distorted enough to short together. A little straightening can be done. Well cleaned and dried (I like lacquer thinner, soaks in and bleeds out oil and dirt. Two or three cycles and allow to dry for a day. Then a thin high grade (two ton?) epoxy can be flowed over and in, allowing it to fill and insulate the turns. Using a little more epoxy and appropriate cloth, patch over the missing cloth covering. BE CAREFUL not to oversize any repairs or patches that could interfere with all the rotating masses.
One of mine, the nick was too deep, ribbons smashed together, insulating ribbons fell out in chunks. I took it apart, just the one. Found a better copper ribbon, and some insulation tape. Made a small jig, and hand wound the replacement coil. I coated to winding and insulation with some epoxy, let it dry. Then wrapped the coil with fiberglass and soaked that with epoxy. Filed and sanded it, and made it fit so fine. Made sure the sizing was good all around, then wired the new coil into its place.
A couple dollars for the epoxy and tap, and about four hours of tinkering.

Just a couple options.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, May 11, 2017 - 10:44 am:

Dennis,

That's the worst looking engine I've ever seen that still ran! You have ZERO babbitt in the center main and almost none anywhere else. The crank journals are also terrible. You need a total rebuild my friend. Wow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Thursday, May 11, 2017 - 11:45 am:

Dennis, In the picture of the crankshaft throw with the Ford script, way on the right side it shows the manufacturers mark, in this case a "T" and a "W" together. This stands for Transue Williams who made lots of parts for Ford.

Over the years we've found out that those T W crankshafts break quite often. I broke one of them myself. Given that knowledge and the condition of the rod journal in the first picture you posted above, and the condition of the babbitt, I would seriously consider getting a different crankshaft for your engine.

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Oak Park MI on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 01:30 pm:

Thanks for all the posts and information. Guess the cracked head was really a blessing in disguise. Now I have to determine how far to take the repair ... direction and depth ...which really is determined by cost.

So far, certainly:
New pistons, push rods, valves, probably valve seats (I have the crank out, but not the valves or camshaft, yet).
So, the suggestion is, even if the crank came clean on a magnaflux test, and could be machined ... it is still suspect, and should be replaced. Replacing with a used/refurbished one vs a new one will be a big bite. The difference, likely between a year or two.
I have another decision to make on the block ... once it's cleaned and magnafluxed (I'll be magnafluxing the camshaft, as well). If the block is OK, then I should send it out for re-babbiting, as that is something 'I'm' not prepared to do. Anyone have a ballpark price on re-babbiting and, I assume line boring? What all do I need for that? Would I need the caps and crank, to have all done and fitted at once?
Sorry ... my first time inside one of these animals. Straight out replacing parts, I'm confident I can do. Things needing precision measurement and tools? Not so much.

Watching Mike Bender's videos gives me a much better understanding (and reference) for those that do this work for a living!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Oak Park MI on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 01:37 pm:

OK ... I give ...
It's been said that my engine was run without oil (or very low). I'm not sure how that would have happened, as I check the lower oil petcock routinely ... but can accept it.

How ta heck does the oil return lines work that are in- and out-side of the block? I can understand how I THOUGHT they worked ... but I don't see how the captured oil from the transmission gets back into the front of the block. I didn't really look close at the front of the block where the outside line goes to, so, perhaps it just dumps the oil into the front of the pan. That makes sense.
The line with the damaged area in the pictures above ... appears to go from the transmission, through the block, then to a fitting that ??? ... goes to what looks like a hole in the front end of the camshaft? I didn't realize that until I looked at my own pictures. I expected that inside line to just dump the captured oil into the front of the pan.

If the front half of the crank got as much oil as the back ... it looks like this would be a WHOLE lot different situation!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Oak Park MI on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 01:38 pm:

And the magneto ring? Yeah ... swapping for a rebuilt is the way to go, I think. That's one of the cheaper options!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Oak Park MI on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 10:27 pm:

Down to a bare butt block... Will take in for cleaning and magnaflux testing next week along with camshaft... maybe crank, also.

















Yeah... one of the cam center bearing halves is broke..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen- Central Minnesota on Saturday, May 13, 2017 - 02:10 pm:

If you use 351 Windsor exhaust valves instead of original or Chevy valves, you probably won't need seats. You can use Chevy 350 locks and retainers in place of the original cup and pin setup. The heads on the 351 valves are slightly larger diameter, allowing your machinist to cut the seat into fresh iron on the block. Don't let anyone fool you into thinking you need hardened seats to run modern fuel. These engines have such low spring pressure that there's no problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Saturday, May 13, 2017 - 03:48 pm:

Is it time to remind you about Mark's engine before you need to put a quarter in the ass kicking machine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Oak Park MI on Saturday, May 13, 2017 - 03:58 pm:

Yes... I am seriously considering it! Problem is coming up with the $$ + shipping, all at once. As it looks like the engine wasn't cleaned... it likely wasn't magnafluxed, so rebuild might be a crap shoot. Still, I can't buy the parts I need for what he's asking for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Saturday, May 13, 2017 - 09:56 pm:

You are going to need to choose a crankshaft before you rebabbitt the block as the line bore must be fitted to your crankshaft.


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