Seems a bit steep for a non-running car, if I didn't know better I'd say the body's broke in two. No connection whatsoever to this...just putting out here for enjoyment and comments!
way too much money. way too much.
That's a lot for a car without a title. I'm jumping though all kinds of hoops with a title. I'm glad that have it.
There are several things wrong with that car for it to be as early as the seller claims. I've spent several years studying "early" 1915 tourings, mainly because I own one. Nevertheless, while anything is possible, the car on ebay is questionable for the following reasons.
1, Early 1915 Touring cars have 1914 bodies with tapered cowls attached. One feature of the early bodies exhibit a rear bead that follows the outline contour of a flat top, 1914 style rear fender. The car on ebay clearly has a 5 piece rear tub that was made for the curved rear fenders of a 1915 style body.
2, Early 1915 cars have the 12 rivet differential. The car on ebay does not (although obviously, it could have been changed out).
3, Early 1915 cars sport the 4-rivet 1914 front fenders. The car on ebay has the later 3 rivet front fenders that were used from mid-15 through the beginning of 1917 production.
4, The engine number and body tag exhibit the same number. I cannot comment on this for Canadian cars, but on US made cars, these never match. Further, the plate is held on by phillip head screws which begs several questions.
5, The engine casting date is Feb 3, 1914. This is WAY premature of a casting date for any car made in late 1914. This raises suspicion.
6, The steering quadrant is a 1914 cast brass unit. I've never seen a 1915 touring with a 1914 quadrant.
If I were a gambling man, I would wager that the car on ebay began life from the Ford factory as a 1914 "wood board Ford" and somewhere in the early years got a 1915 body dropped on it. This is further bolstered by the fork mounted headlamps.
Just my 2 cents.
It's must be Canadian dollars which is quite a bit less than US dollars, but to me it seems very high, though I'm quite new to the T world
Jim L- that's a Canadian car, and that'll twist the possibilities a little. Usually they made a big stock of engines during winter when sales were low and the workers could be warmed in the foundry. Then by spring and summer, cars were built and the last engine out from the warehouses may have been the first one in?
The forked headlamps were a feature on 1915 Canadian cars, but not on US cars. And the car number and engine number did indeed stay the same for Canadian production as long as they had car numbers. The screws look suspicious, but if a straighter look at them shows they're actually Robertson screws, then that would be the best proof that the car is genuine - and probably not an early '15 but maybe a later mid model year production car?
All those things you mention are what make Canadian T's so different from the US ones.
The engine/body numbers usually match and are right for a 15 Canadian T.
You will notice that the ad says Quebec. Also the car has front doors on both sides. I think the engine number starts with letter C Very definitely a Canadian car.
Ok, so lets address the body. Are we to believe that correct "15" bodies (opposed to transitional bodies) appeared in Canada months before they did in the US? The body detail at the rear fender is significant. How many other Canadian 15's do we have to draw from? Canadian owners should comment with details.
The section in Bruce's book on the Canadian numbering system, he makes it very clear that there is a lot of speculation on actual production and dates.
It's all very interesting.
There may be "some" differences in the US vs Canadian cars but do you really think that the Canadian cars would have got the 1915 body in Feb of 1914 when Ford was still supplying the 1914 style touring and runabout bodies into 1915 for the outer dealers and distribution plants.
That price is about 3x what I think real market value is.
Price specifies US dollars.
While I have been in favor of preservation of nice original cars since long before it became popular. I am afraid that this one is beyond the point of true preservation. It certainly could be restored to look like a true original, but, when is that line really crossed.
Certainly, it is of special interest because it is a "mostly unmolested" original Canadian 1915. There are several details that I wish I could look at closely. Especially the rear end.
Look at sellers history and sold items his prices are always way high
Mark, no one believes it was produced in February 1914 when the block was cast, but there are too few data points to pinpoint accurately when it was really built..
We have the hand written records that says C-16500 was built July 31, 1914, C-37500 July 31, 1915 and C-70000 July 31, 1916. They look like rounded off numbers from memory. From that we have a yearly production of 21,000 cars 1914-15 and 32,500 1915-16. The mean monthly production would then be 1750 cars 1914-15 and 2,700 cars 1915-16, but production was never even over the year - they didn't have space to store whole cars when sales were slow during the winter months, but there were space to store engines and other components - they didn't take as much space.
The ebay seller counts 1750/month from july 31 1914 and comes to mid November 1914 in his estimation - but what if they stopped winter production before C-22420 and it was built during spring season instead? If we count backwards from the July 31, 1915 data point with the 1915/16 monthly production of 2,700 we come to mid February 1915, and that would be possible for a 1915 style body.
Since everyone else is tossing in the what-ifs, I may as well too. What if this is just an ordinary and un-special 15 that at some point stole the identity of a 14?
Far as I can tell, my 26 was literally paraded as a 23 for years so it's not that far fetched.
Tim, that would also be a good explanation - the patent plate is only held by a couple of screws, so it may have been tampered with. But if the original C-22420 was a 1914 style car, it would still have been made late 1914, making it a 1915 model year according to Royce
I'm new to T's but have been fascinated with original "preservation" cars since way before it became a fad.
I've owned a half dozen or so exceptional cars in this category and know some things to look for, regardless of make and model.
And...one thing that immediately creates suspicion is a data plate that's been removed and reattached. It's not a deal-breaker, but it does go in the "No" column right away.
I would say this car is very typical of an early-ish Canadian 1915. Forked headlight brackets were used into 1916. Lettered pedals were seen through most or all 1915 cars. I've seen another early 1915 with the 1914 spark/gas quadrant. On my son in law's 1915, the serial number tag was fastened to the firewall with tacks. It's impressive to see the engine splash pans still in place. It's a very authentic car needing a bunch of work.
I'll just take the lazy, simple explanation that it had a '14 engine dropped in it at some point in time as a replacement. I did notice the headlamps have the '15 specific angled sockets. Another thing, supposedly the Canadian '15s had the body, hood, and hood former painted the infamous Midnight Blue. The fenders, and I'm gonna assume the running boards and the splash SHIELDS (there Larry!! ha ha) were black. Taking a close look at the first picture, you can see a difference in the paint in those areas. The body does look to have a dark blue tint to it. And I still think the body is "broken"..it has way too much sag from front to rear in it for my liking.
The ad does say (Best Offer) let him sit on it for awhile and offer him $500.00. Its worth that much for the parts.
Even at half the price, it would be too much money. Did anyone notice the early gas cap?
I have a friend who has a Canadian T. He always thought it was a 15, but last time I saw him he said it is a 14.
One of the things about the Canadian cars is that they were made in such a way that the same body could be made for right hand or left hand drive, so they had front doors on both sides. So they wouldn't have imported U.S. bodies. It would not be out of range to think that if changes were to be made for a new body, that it would be made when they ran out of the old ones rather than on a strict year model basis.
The whole 1914/'15 changeover has been a mess to sort out for more than half a century now, and we (all of us interested in such details) are not done yet! When I got into the hobby almost fifty years ago, almost everything I was told about the early and all 1915 and '16 cars was flat-out WRONG! Toss Canadian production (which was much less documented) into the mix, and we really have a confusing mess. Throughout model T production, Canada made many changes before USA production did. How or why? I really don't know. Many changes in Canada were made later than USA. That is one of the reasons why I think this car is somewhat special as it is. Considerable documentation should be done before any significant restoration.
Several things on this car likely were changed at some point in its years. Or not. When I first looked at the photos on the eBad listing (before this thread even began), I noticed the casting date on the block. MY reaction was that the engine had probably been changed at some point long ago.
However. Like Roger K was saying on 11/May/ 8:57, the engine could well have been manufactured early during the cold/slow season, and been a first in last out for assembly into a car. We know that such things did occur, in both USA and Canadian production. The mere fact that the engine side pans are in place is a good indication that the engine was never changed.
We also know that the body is not as early as the engine.
The design changes for the '15 style were begun probably early in 1914. Planned changes were worked on, prototypes made, forms and patterns designed and made, and experimental stampings attempted. Then, oops. The new cowl and body side panel design did not lend itself well to the stamping process they had. Efforts to resolve the problem were less than satisfactory.
One of our better researchers in a previous forum mentioned additional orders being placed for the 1914 style bodies to keep production and sales going while the production problem was worked out.
The problems were slowly resolved, with runabout cars being produced in small numbers beginning in December '14, while touring cars slowly followed in January '15 for USA production. Meanwhile, to keep production and sales in larger numbers going, the 1914 style continued to be produced and sold in USA through at least April of 1915. In USA production, most of those '14 style cars were produced and sold having 1915 numbers. It was such a solid miss-belief during the '50s and '60s of the hobby, that most of those cars had their correct original engines replaced with 1914 engines in an effort to make the car "more correct". I remember talking with many people in those days that did that. "Real" 1914 engines were plentiful in those days. And so many people wanted the 1915 engine for the '16/'17/'18 that they were converting to a '15 for horseless carriage use, that the '15 engine was worth more to sell for that purpose than the '14 engine would cost to make their '14 style car "more correct".
All this production stuff and its fallout relates to this and other Canadian runabout and touring cars because of one detail. The production problem was that one large side panel that had both the lower cowl and the fake side door in it. The USA driver's side panel.
Canadian cars had two front doors regardless of whether they were left-hand drive or right-hand drive. The problem that delayed USA production for about five months did not exist for the Canadian cars. So, the question becomes, WHEN did the Canadian production begin in the 1915 style? I do not know. Does anybody?
With no title, questionable body sills and wood framing its a $10,000 car at the most. The matching no.s would help it sell to a perfectionist who really wanted it.
RE; "The mere fact that the engine side pans are in place is a good indication that the engine was never changed."
I don't buy that as an indication of the engine being replace or not. Just because it still has the pans does not mean the engine is original or not.
Mark G, You are correct. That is why I call it only an "indication". Their presence proves nothing other than they are there. Many cars never had an engine removed for repair or any other reason, but the side pans were removed for cooling reasons (mostly a false hope), or just because they were in the way at some point. Many other cars had engines removed and replaced, or rebuilt, had the side pans dutifully put back.
Lots of questions in that car. Maybe some answers. If someone can study it before it gets torn apart.
I wish I could afford to consider it. Although I do agree that given its present state of condition, the price is a bit high.
Little much foe me but it's a neat ads old car. Tim
Little much for me but it's a Neat old car. It needs saved by someone at some price.Tim
I don't think there is such a thing a "true" 1915. There were at least four different body manufacturers, many accessories such as head lights, tops, top saddles, horn and many different steering wheels, laminated, sections and one piece models. There were dealer accessories, jobber accessories and factory accessories. Some parts were carried over from the previous production models, bare chassis could be purchased and outfitted any way you wanted. Radiators have made in USA stamped in the top tank, some have made in Canada and some have nothing. Some radiators have long spouts and some have short spouts. There are many variables and possibilities for a 1915 model, I don't think there is a "true" 1915.
Certainly no "one true and all should be like this" '15. But then, most of the brass years were that way to quite some extent. 1909 models and 1912 models were probably the worst in that regard. In the "black era" cars, 1921 may be the worst. Three panel and five panel rear tubs, a significant change in the upholstery tack rail, headlamp lenses? Quite a few detail changes that all left the factory together.
my name is charles and i am the owner of this 1915 ford model T.
i've apparently missed the the thread, the car is a 1915 Ford Model T, matching number car, it is not been made to be a matching number car but rather a real example.
I am open to offers, i know my first price was high, but you can only go down in price not up!
So Please contact me or post and i will answer all questions with pictures.
The car can be shipped anywhere!
Here is the picture of the Brass Rad, Ford Ontario
Last night, I saw this car was back on eBad. I wanted to bump this thread back up, but I could not find it. My forum search skills are not great. Thank you for bumping it back up!
I do hope that car finds a good home that will document and research it for details before any significant restoration is done.
I really like the car. It is a fine original example of a Canadian car. Probably a little steep price wise. $10,000 Cdn might be closer. 5 years ago I might have become a owner!!
I don't know how much you can rely on the Canadian Ford Times to be accurate but the change in body style showed the change to the 1915 body in February 1915
In the January 1915 Ford Times it shows the earlier body.
For what it's worth, Here's a Facebook thread on another Canadian T, a 1917 with windshield parts indicating it was built in the spring of 1917 like April had it been a USA built, but the engine was cast in June 1916: https://m.facebook.com/groups/17532215547?view=permalink&id=10158740354170548&re f=m_notif¬if_t=group_comment
I'm not the expert that some of you guys are, but one thing that I can guarantee is that the ID plate has been off during or after 1935 - that's when the Phillips screw went into production. There may be a perfectly reasonable explanation for this, however.
John, those are Robertson
And Ford Canada used a lot of Robertson screws in the cars before 1915. I don't know how many per car, door hinges, a few bolts behind the upholstery, not a big number. But I would expect that the two remaining screws in his data plate photo may well be originals.
Many years ago, a good friend had a '15/'16 Canadian T center-door sedan. It was early enough, and Canadian production was slightly different than USA production. The car still had the original gasoline tank under the rear seat. It also had a fair number of Robertson screws.
By the way, many automotive engineers consider Robertson screws to be far superior to either USA slotted or Phillips screws. Having used a fair amount of Canadian made electronic equipment years ago, I think they are also.
Rob - I could very well be wrong - it wouldn't be the first time. My eyes are not quite what they used to be, but I still think that the plate has been off. As I said earlier, there could be a very reasonable explanation for this, but Henry wouldn't have punched four holes in the data plate if it were going to be attached with only two screws.
C22420 makes it a 1915 forked head lights makes it an early 15 having the engine number match the body plate is common in Canada there are three 1920s Ts here in town that are matching the 1912 is matching the club 1917 bus is matching . This is a common 1915 and at this time I know of 7 cars just like this one and for the work needed about 5,000 is about it your coming to spend 10,000 in restoration more if you pay to have it done. A nice restored 1915 with all original parts touring sold here in Winnipeg for 18,000 Canadian dollars ready to tour.
Out of my price range. Tim and
Wow, the owner did really well on this one.
It didn't sell so he lowered his asking price