Found engine paint on 1913 touring

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Found engine paint on 1913 touring
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel Indiana Truck Logansport In on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 06:16 pm:

I have wanted to clean up the engine on the original 1913 touring for about a year now so yesterday I pushed it outside and got out the power washer. I had seen a little hint of black under all the dirt but now I know this engine was painted but it was a thin coat on a clean bare block. The engine pans had a ton of dirt over an inch thick and also cleaned up to show black paint. I don't think this engine has ever been out of this car and as far as anyone can say, the 1928 license plates on it were the last time it was registered and the car has sat inside for the last 89 years. I plan to pull the engine out soon and see what needs done to get it in running condition and will get some good pictures as I go. I know this has come up before about paint or no paint but I say from what I see they were painted from the factory in 1913 at least.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel Indiana Truck Logansport In on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 06:40 pm:

Here is a link to all the pictures I posted of this car last year before anything was cleaned up.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/641256.html?1465650132


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 07:01 pm:

There was a black "wash" on both my ' 23's and I understand this was the norm. If you know nothing about the engine's condition a compression test, both dry and wet will give you the best idea about what's going on inside. I personally prefer to do a T motor's compression test when cold because of it's relatively low compression, (compared to a modern anyway) as it gives a better idea of the comp on dead cold engine starts as you'd probably get a higher reading when hot. Don't pull the engine out without some good diagnostic's. You could save yourself a load of time and $.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 07:39 pm:

"Amen" to what Charlie said...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 09:09 pm:

Charlie,
Good advice but going by the photo's of Bob's 13, the head and 1 piston have been removed, then engine had a problem?? before he bought it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 10:26 pm:

Hell I didn't go far enough down to see that pic. Wow, one way or the other he's got his hands full with that car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Benjamin Morgan - Metamora, Indiana on Friday, May 12, 2017 - 10:29 pm:

Pics please Bob!!! I was just looking into old 13 era factory photos for answers to the engine paint question.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, May 13, 2017 - 11:49 am:

There are a number of points I'd like to make on this car! The front spring isn't real common, but there are examples of them around. The front spring retainer clip is riveted to the spring leaf. Next, note the horn bracket is the round style which is correct for a '13. Next, I'd like Bob to post a photo of the front lip on the fenders. On a lot of them, it sticks out, but is still even with the rest of the fender. The front and rear seat spring retainers are leatherette covered. Is the core of these wood or metal as in later versions? Next, the rear end appears to have been replaced with a '15 or later assembly, so it is possible the radius rods are not the original forged end design. Bob can tell us that too. There are two other examples I know of. Kim Dobbins has one, and Dan Killecut has the other. The inside of the hood appears black. My '13 roadster is the same. Is it possible the hoods were black japan dipped, and the bodies painted blue. I know I'm starting something here?
Enough for now!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Benjamin Morgan - Metamora, Indiana on Saturday, May 13, 2017 - 12:07 pm:

Larry, I've seen his car up close. The spring retainers are wood. I was curious about when the change was, or if it was body maker specific.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Dix on Saturday, May 13, 2017 - 12:33 pm:

What are the engine and body numbers on this car? I see the big serial number tag.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel Indiana Truck Logansport In on Saturday, May 13, 2017 - 09:45 pm:

This engine needs to come out to be gone over and probably rebuilt and the mag. needs to be done to make it a tour ready car when it is done. A past owner was putting in what looks like used, newer style pistons a lot of years ago from the looks of things but I see nothing else wrong with it other than valves were removed. I will know more when the engine comes out and I get to check everything.

Engine number 196722 casting date 12-24-12 Made in USA on block, date on head 1-20-13

Body tag from memory 184XXX as I am not at home as I post this.

Larry, I will get you a picture from the side/front of the lip on the fender in a couple of days. The seat retainers are wood as Benjamin says. I have a lot of good paint on the under side of the hood but it was coated real good with thick oil and it is hard to clean off without damage to or removing the paint so I am going work on it by hand with a rag and polish it up and take it outside to see the color. It did look black where I polished it before but the body shows blue. What is up with this? I thought the hood and body were blue? More cleaning to come on this part.

Benjamin, You know how dark it is where this car sits and it is hard to roll it around myself with a flat rear tire or did you forget the "BIG BANG" while you were looking it over? :-)

I will try a shot or two of the engine while I am at it but when this comes out and I spend some time on it maybe the paint will show up much better.

Wish I had more time to work on it but when ever I do anything, pictures will be taken.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Monday, May 15, 2017 - 12:36 am:

Bob:
Would you kindly post the serial number of your car, and the engine number too? Inquiring minds need to know! Take real good care of the side curtains. Not too many of them around. In fact I'm sure Mike Francis at Classtique would love to have them to copy for us who have nothing! The serial number is on that big brass plate over the steering column.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Benjamin Morgan - Metamora, Indiana on Monday, May 15, 2017 - 12:46 am:

Larry, he posted it above, but here it is again

"Engine number 196722
Casting date 12-24-12
Made in USA on block
Date on head 1-20-13
Body tag from memory 184XXX"

I've seen those side curtains, and they are like new, save for the celluloid windows. The whole car is great, and will study it some more for my restore project.

Bob, I forgot about the tire boom! Now that I'm back on the mend, I'd like to see it again soon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, May 16, 2017 - 10:52 am:

An amazing car! I would love to see it! The coil box is still the '12 design. As far as the steering wheel goes, it could have been sanded down by a former owner, or replaced at some point. Most '13s I've seen are one piece. I'm sure happy to see a former owner didn't drill a hole for the master vibrator in the patent plate.
Have the valve covers been found? If not, originals are getting pretty pricey. They are .095" thick. Take a look at the oil cap to see if it says Made in USA under Ford. I think your windshield is a Rands, and both halves are the same size. These are uncommon but correct. My car is like that. Enough for now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel Indiana Truck Logansport In on Thursday, May 18, 2017 - 02:22 pm:

Pictures for everyone.













Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Thursday, May 18, 2017 - 03:27 pm:

what am i not seeing with those valve covers i have never seen any thing like that??????????????????. charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Friday, May 19, 2017 - 10:15 am:

Keep these photos coming! First of all my question is of the hood. It almost leads me to believe the hoods were dipped in black japan as the fenders were. My '13 roadster is the same way. Comments?
Next, I find the grease cup for the fan interesting. My '13 roadster had two of those on the differential, and from asking around, they did use that type in '13, but most likely not exclusively.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel Indiana Truck Logansport In on Friday, May 19, 2017 - 01:49 pm:

Valve covers were in a box that came with the car and have been off for a looooooog time and had rusted. I put them back on to keep water out of the valve area while I tried to clean things up a little. Now I can see some of the bolts and details. I found 3 small square head bolts with a square nut and cotter pin holding the engine pan to the frame on each side. Hard to see but in picture 4 from the top you can see one next to the spring for the hood latch just past that grease cup on the fan. It also shows up in the next picture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Sunday, May 21, 2017 - 07:36 am:

valve covers still dont look right. charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Sunday, May 21, 2017 - 08:29 am:

Larry... My hood was dipped also. You can see the runs from where the leaned the hood sections up against something and then pulled it away so the paint would flow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Sunday, May 21, 2017 - 10:47 am:

valve coversvalve coverscompare the pics. the ones on that car are taller than mine also look like a box????? charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, May 21, 2017 - 07:01 pm:

I know this is going to start a huge discussion. Jim Lyons and I just agreed the hoods were dipped. If that is so, then why isn't the inside of the hood blue? The hood off my '13 runabout is the same as the one pictured above, and it was restored in the late '40s, but the inside of the hood wasn't touched. It's BLACK.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, May 21, 2017 - 07:01 pm:

I know this is going to start a huge discussion. Jim Lyons and I just agreed the hoods were dipped. If that is so, then why isn't the inside of the hood blue? The hood off my '13 runabout is the same as the one pictured above, and it was restored in the late '40s, but the inside of the hood wasn't touched. It's BLACK.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Monday, May 22, 2017 - 07:18 am:

Larry / Bob
My 13 Touring is a Late 13 (June car) and from what I can determine, was all black from the factory. I have lots of original paint to be found, but none of it is blue. It received an amateur paint job back in the 70's but fortunately, they only painted the exterior sheet metal. The underside of the hood, steering column, hood former, and top sills are original paint from 1913. The hood is indeed dipped in black japan and later today, I'll try to post pics of the underside that show the dip marks and runs. To also confirm my belief that this car was always black is that I replaced the cheap vinyl interior that was in it with correct leather. The original paint under the seat backs was BLACK. So this car was never blue and it appears they had made the transition out of blue by this time (Engine No. 299,995)

The fortunate thing about my car is that the person who painted it back in the 70's left everything else alone - meaning the running gear. So when you open the hood, lift a seat cushion, or slide under the car, you are looking at an untouched, un-restored 1913. This is a great thing and I'm leaving it that way. I have never cleaned any of the oil or grease off the engine or engine pans to look for original paint. I will take a close look this evening to see if I can detect any paint under the grease and oil, and if so, I'll photograph what I find and post it here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Tuesday, May 23, 2017 - 11:05 am:

bob! could i see a pic with the frt valve cover off. thanks charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 07:53 am:

still no one seeing what i see on the valve cover??? charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 08:23 am:

Charley are you saying that the valve covers are not stamped square?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 08:42 am:

herb! compare to mine they are taller and they look like a box at the top. would like to see them off. charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 10:37 am:

If you look at the valve cover closely, you will see it isn't mounted straight. It clearly looks like the correct one. Next, note the lip that I mentioned on an earlier post. I definitely sticks out. There are quite a few of these around, but I'm not sure if they all were that way. I don't think Rootlieb makes this type.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 12:06 pm:

larry! i cant turn mine that far with out it hiting the top of the block????? charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel Indiana Truck Logansport In on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 02:06 pm:

Charley,

I will get some pictures of the covers off the car but the one in the picture you see is not on straight. I just stuck it on the engine and the nut is only finger tight to keep most of the dirt and water out of the valve area while I was cleaning. The angle of the picture and the rusty cover angle makes it look funny. These covers were in a box when I got the car and the box had been wet so everything in it was rusty. I wont be able to post anything till I get back home and get pictures and then make it back to town where I can get on the internet again. Sometimes we only get to town once a week or so but now we have a close friend in bad shape and Richmond coming up so it might be a while. I will get back to you soon.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Benjamin Morgan - Metamora, Indiana on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 10:01 pm:

Charley, they are the correct .090 thick valve covers. I've seen and handled them in person.


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