Found this Sherman Spit Fire head and two Winfield SR carbs plus parts today at a garage sale over in Idaho. Happy day.
Cheap ? Did they know what it was ?
I really hope you're not going to cheer for taking advantage of someone's
lack of knowledge. I participate in another hobby and it is truly disheartening
to read posts by members, glowing over having screwed the other guy on
some valuable item. I have asked these people how they would view such
behavior if it was THEIR widow being taken advantage of. They get REAL
Is the culture of deceit and taking advantage of others how we really want to
steward our hobby ?
Congrats Pat! Always love finding parts out in the "wild" like yard sales and antique shops.
There is a big difference between buying something that you plan to turn right around resell at a big profit versus buying something because you appreciate its real value.
Why should I have to pay what other people with much deeper pockets decided it was worth? If that was the case I wouldn't have half of the stuff that I do, and it would probably be sitting in someone else's collection who appreciates it much less. Or worse...in a landfill!
Applauds to Mr. Burger, you are truly an ambassador to the hobby! Brian
seller sets price on object at garage sale. Buyer pays the price.
What a terribly dishonest thing to do. In fact, the buyer actually screwed the seller by paying their price.
Perhaps the government should outlaw garage sales and have a monthly "government sale" with prices set by a bureaucrat so as to make sure everyone is treated fairly.
Yeah, that should work real well.
Burger- the price paid has not been posted.
Any chance that choke fits a BB? Ive got a choke for a B but need one for a BB.
There's always gotta be a whiner...
The whole point of a garage sale is to offer up stuff at a reduced price to entice people in, and clear out the things you don't want anymore.
I hope Pat paid 5 bucks for that stuff.
I was once shopping at the Bakersfield swap meet with Trent Boggess. We were walking together and entered a large enclosed car trailer. In the back was a complete KRW model T engine stand complete with the tool tray and roller base. The tag read $85.00. I bought it. If I haden't, Trent would have or the next guy in the trailer surly would have.
Back to Burgers point, I have also offered more for some under priced things at swap meets. Guess it depends on the situation. If it's a widow selling her husbands stuff it becomes a bit of an ethical issue.
I always say if you see my name in the obits rush on over cause the wife will be shoveling the stuff out the door for pennies on the dollar! Can you say "Rolling In My Grave"........Sure You Can!
The seller knew what he had. It hadn't sold in two days. Not much of a market in rural North Idaho. The asking price was to high, my first offer was to low. We met in the middle and both were happy. You should have seen the speedster setting there for sale! That thing had a super hot T motor in it.
Now, who has experience with these Winfields?
Model T'ers Prayer:
Lord, Please don't let my wife sell all of my T-stuff for what I told her I paid for it!
Happy Mothers Day
Amend brother Cheshire!!!
Pat, what a great score. I hope you did get it for a great price.
Not everyone will all the time get a great deal or a cheap buy on something. For every 6-10 purchases I make, I may get a deal on one.
I also agree that if you pay what someone is asking, then where is the issue---whether if it's for resale or not. Even if you don't pay what the seller is asking, if both parties are happy at the point of sale, that is all that matters. A garage sale is just an auction without an auctioneer.
Would it have been better if Pat offered to trade yard work services for the head and carbs in lieu of money? Money is just another tool for bartering. And lets not assume Pat bought those for $5 or $10, but even at a few hundred, its still a great deal.
The one point of taking advantage of a widow or family members that just don't know about their deceased fathers collection is a good one. With the advent of the internet, that "should be" less of an issue today. But again, if both parties are happy, then where is the problem. When it comes to large collections, sometimes the sale price might seem great and items can go for pennies on the dollar. But remember the family doesn't have to deal with hauling and peddling the parts for sometimes years to get rid of it all....something important when a property is for sale.
When I hear stories like this, I always wonder: Where in the heck do you find garage sales like that? I've been stopping at yard/garage sales for many years and I never find anything but some woman's used clothes, worn out shoes, and lots of used baby things.
Great find! Nobody gets screwed when both parties agree on the price. Getting something at a good price does not mean you screwed the seller. In this "information age" there is no reason a seller should not know what they have, and an idea of the value. After that, its between two people, and none of my business what it sold for.
So uh what was I supposed to do? Tell the guy I gave $2 to for the actual T screwdriver that it's worth x amount more? Seriously? Sounds like someone who actually got screwed once. Or did somebody else and feels poorly about it now. Sellers should do a bit of homework on especially odd stuff. With the inter web today there's no excuse.
I don't see any problem with it. The seller didn't want it and almost anyone who saw it didn't want it either. You happened to know what it was and that you could put it to use or sell it to someone who would. The seller got it out of his garage and instead of it going to the dump or the salvage yard, it was put to use. Both are winners.
The close-up of the SR clearly shows the serial number as being a SR (accelerator pump model) "A D ---" - A being the smallest and D being downdraft configuration. What's the numbers on the other 2 bodies ?
I bought a Greenfield Tap & Die set from a yard sale,I saw the box and a $3.00 price tag and thought the box must be empty. When I opened the box there were all the handles instructions on how to adjust the dies and so forth the Youth challenged woman who was running the sale saw me and said "Will you use it?" I said maybe occasionally but with a #4 32 I would probably be afraid of breaking it, so it would mostly be used to show others how stuff used to be made, and this is worth more than $3.00. She wouldn't take more than $5.00 for it and told me it was good to see it go to someone who would appreciate it . BIG SCORE
I am with Burger on this one.
Years back, there was a well known T'r who bought an early T from a widow for far less then market value. He told the story of getting the car cheap with great delight. Every time I see him, I remember that. To this day, I won't deal with him.
Congrats to Pat Kelly. Any time both parties walk away happy from a deal they mutually agree to is a good time.
Chastising someone because they got a good deal makes no sense to me.
I do agree with the ethical issues when dealing with a widow. She can probably ill afford to take another (loss of spouse income) financial beating.
Gee guys, Pat didn't say he ripped the guy off as he later explained. My first impression was he was excited that he found these parts at all in a non T venue!
I'm happy for Pat on his discovery and do not see a reason to get all righteous over his and the seller's good fortune.
Pat Kelly is from MONTANA and would not cheat anybody out of anything. Why anybody would make that assumption is beyond me.
The Loudest Boos Come From the Cheapest Seats!!!!!!!!!!
Steve, here are the numbers.
S-B-7576 The B could be a D. Can't make it out.
Thanks Pat - hard to find a "matching" set of downdraft SR's - even though they're "A"'s. That pair on an OHV set-up would be real cool !
Interested in parting with the "S" B body - I have an orphan fuel bowl for a S ?
Pat did good, buyer and seller are happy, everybody wins!
I once found a cast iron Syracuse Plow co. seat at a local sale, marked "5.oo". I told the old farmer selling his stuff that it was worth a bit more (John Deere bought out the company pre-WWI, the early non- JD seats are scarce and JD collectors actively seek them out, and from my perspective, are willing to pay "stupid money" to get them).
His granddaughter took it, put it on ebay with a description I supplied for them and it brought 435.oo.
The backstory was that he was having the barn sale to help pay for his wife's mounting health care cost (we are the only "civilized" country were you have to do such things....)
and that extra helped them out-if even if just a bit.
True, I didn't get the seat, I but gained a couple of friends (since passed...) and felt I did the right thing for them.
That said, I can't be sure that if it had been a rare Fordson related artifact, how the deal would have played out......
I've heard "that story" before Kim - another fellow up this way did the same to a close friend's rather extensive collection !
I've always done my antique buying with a simple rule: if someone is selling a pricey item for $10 I'll pay them the $10. If they ask me first what it's worth I'll tell them honestly. In a few cases I've paid people more than their asking price. I've never cheated anyone in 35 years and feel good about it. I congratulate Pat on an good find and I could care less what he paid for it - obviously both parties involved were happy. I hope there are more good finds in his future. Any complaints must be nothing more than finder-envy.
Steve, sure I don't need that body. PM me and let me know what you're thinking.
We've had several auctions over the years where the merchandise was listed, photographed and advertised and some "friend of (insert name of deceased here)" showed up at the house with cash to "Pay a fair price because you'll never get that out of it at the auction and this way you won't have to pay commission."
Alternative line: XXXXXXXXXXX always wanted me to have this when he was gone and knew I'd pay you a fair price.
One woman sold the best china cabinet I have ever seen to an antique dealer for less than half of what we would have got at the auction. We had a lot of unhappy people when it wasn't at the auction. I pointed her out -- the woman in the green coat -- and let her deal with her own lack of fair play with us and the people who drove hundreds of miles to try to buy it. She was no old grieving widow, she was a greedy granddaughter.
It is nice to see those Pat. I'm glad it inspired some spirited comments. Another chapter of the pricing game.
Let me clarify ... I made no suggestion that Pat paid too much or too little.
I was speaking in general about being fair with people. Sure, you can get a
good deal and still be fair, but the guy who would suggest paying $5 for it,
knowing full well it was worth 100x that is what we call in my world, a snake-
-in-the-grass thief. Smiling at the person as they screw them. We all define
our character by the way we think beyond ourselves when no one is watching.
Several of my friends have found themselves suddenly no longer in my circle
of friends after I witnessed them screw someone. I have no use for weasels
and will not have them in my sphere of influence. They make everyone around
them look bad.
Nice find, Pat. I hope you got a great deal and the seller was happy to see
you get it. From previous conversations, you seem to me to be the kind of guy
who understands what that means.
Burger, I take it that your contrite attitude now is as a result of the fitting chastisement you have received here ? I simply asked the guy what he paid for it as there is one over on the classifieds at the moment for $600. I was not expecting a vitriolic tirade like yours. Most of these "rare" bits are traded for way above their true worth, just so some 'goon' can say " I got one of those".
Yes, there are A-holes in most areas of interest. There are several here in NZ who seem to be interested in Model Ts purely for making profits and have even had their consciences surgically removed.
I would suggest that IF you HAVE cut off SEVERAL of your friends for being rip-off crooks, you are poor at choosing friends !
My attitude comes from treating others fairly and honestly. I started
my original post with "I really hope ..." which was not only fair, but honest.
I really DO hope you do not see things as some do, where taking advantage
of others is brag sport. If the shoe does not fit, please don't force it on
for the purposes of having a hurt feeling.
Incidentally, we often do not see our friends perform in ways like how they
"work a deal" until we have known them for some time, .... some times
never. When I did, I called them out on it and made it clear where my line
of ethics stood. They chose to be cheapskates and weasels and we ceased
to be friends. Pretty straight forward.
A little bit of a different story, I went to a "divorce sale" a long time ago. It was the huge Model T collection of a very well know person in the 1980s era. I had been suggested by a person who was a "common" acquaintance of the wife and myself, that I would be interested in the parts and stuff. When I got there I was the first person to see the "hoard". It was offered to me for the price of 1000.00 (one thousand) for every model T item on the property (over two semi truck loads). I told her I was interested but the price seemed too low and asked why it was so cheap. She produced court orders giving her permission to sell all the property and items. The proceeds were to be split 50/50 with her husband. She then went into details about how she did not need any money from the settlement. She was financially OK, but her husband was not. She said that if I did not take it, there were lots of folks waiting in line if I did not want it. She also said she, would sell it for scrap before her husband would get full value from the stuff. In 1980s prices, there was well over 20,000 dollars worth of model T parts, as well as almost every KR Wilson tool made for model Ts. In a way I felt bad for buying the parts, but what else could a person have done. There is a real good chance that most every Model T person that went to Chickasha in the 1980s early 1990s era has some of that hoard in their collection, or on their car.
Did you take advantage of someone's lack of knowledge ? No.
You took the deal, as logically presented in great detail. Nothing
As others have said here, I see nothing wrong with paying what the seller is asking. After all, they set the price no matter what the item may be, automotive or antique. I certainly am no expert so, I don't feel I need to educate someone. I have found at times, I have paid more for items than what they are going for as I was not sure at the time of purchase. Do I feel screwed then? No, just uninformed. Perhaps, it should be; Buyer or Seller beware?
A friend of mine sold me a blunderbuss (1700's)but was unsure if it was an original or not (he does cannons and received it as partial payment) for a simple $200 which was what it was worth as a non functional old replica. After I got it and tore it apart I founf it to be an authentic piece that had been "restored" thus causing the confusion. I called him back and offered to give it back for what I paid for it knowing it was worth at least 10 times that. Long story short he knew I would bring it back to original and said that the deal was a deal and to keep it.
Imagine someone taking that attitude with your elderly parent, wife, or children.
Would just shrug it off when they got their ID stolen, scammed on some investment
deal, just plain taken advantage of ?
You do not feel the need to educate anyone ? So, you would rather keep that knowledge
to yourself so as to deprive the other guy of a fair deal ? Hmmm .... that reads as
intentional deceit for the purposes of personal gain to me !
If the one-sided knowledge that leads to taking advantage of others is a concept
lost on you, just flip the circumstances around and consider being screwed by another.
There is a biblical reference to treating others as you would want to be treated. This
is pretty simple, really.
As it relates to being stewards of our hobbies, few things chap my hide like meeting
that guy who is pretty angry because someone like me crossed their path before I did
and ripped him off, leaving an impression that we are ALL a bunch of weasely scoundrels,
and now I get branded as being a weasel too.
I already said, that I did not feel screwed when I paid more than an item(s) is worth as I was uninformed about the item(s) but, I liked it (them).
As far as my family goes, I know for sure once I'm gone my things will be sold for pennies on the dollar! Such is life. I told my wife to contact an auction house but, that doesn't guarantee anything. It would be an astronomical task for me to go around pricing everything! It is what it is.....
Like I said, I am no expert on anything. Far from it! Just like to collect anything that's old.
Nothing burns my hide like someone pushing their religious beliefs onto me! It certainly has no place here!
I treat people as I liked to be treated, with respect.
Burger, I gotta agree with you on people who enjoy screwing over people. I dealt with a widow a number of years ago. Bought all his tools, and a 49 mercury truck. I showed her online what the truck would bring without title, in its condition. We agreed on a price. Same with tools. The snap on 6 foot cabinet I made an offer on, a price which I could afford, and told her it was worth much more, but my finances wouldn't allow it. Fortunately she got market value. She was very very happy with my honesty. So....1) she was happy. 2) I was Happy, and 3) I left there being able to look st myself in the mirror
Wish I had never bothered to ask Pat Kelly what he paid for it now. Thought that was a fairly simple and civil question.
Was going to make a comment here but Burger, you ain't worth the effing effort.
Sure you weren't into burning witches in a past life ?
Ivan I didn't take Burgers comments to be directed at you or Pat. He was making a general comment.
Religious beliefs or not it all boils down to ETHICS. And it ain't 'do unto others before they do it to you' as some seem to do. Now that's a GENERAL comment.
Some people are plain scum and need to be dead. Others just go through
life looking for a hurt feeling. I am pleased to see that most here "get it" and
are stand up, ethical guys. As STATED in a previous post, none of these comments
were directed at anyone in particular, but were GENERAL comments about
CONCEPTS of ETHICS and how we treat others and steward the hobby we
seem to share. We all know a dirtbag weasel when we see one. We have all
seen them doing evil to others. This is not some big mystery of intent. Don't
try to twist this into a pity party of being victimized. If the shoe fits, wear it.
If it don't, then let it go. Geepers !
Once at a swap meet in the early 80's I found a set of buffalo wires and the guy gave me a really good price, one that was a few hundred more than I had. My folks were there at the same SM and I "borrowed" the cash as fast as I could hoping that they would be still on the trailer when I got back as the price was under market value, maybe even in the really nice price range, but no way less than 75% of what a set was worth. When I got back he had the biggest shit eating grin on his face when he "explained" he wanted that amount for each wheel. I spread the word around about this and he ended up leaving a little after noon having sold very little and still having those wheels. I did run into him more than once in the next 15 years at auctions, not talking much with anyone as most knew what he was like. The plus side was he never got much as he always wanted to pay very little. I run into several "dealers" at auctions and some times they get stuff and sometimes they don't, but for the most part they pay a price closer to fair than not.
Why don't we turn our collective attention to the OP's question early on ?
" Now, who has experience with these Winfields? "
Maybe someone can post a reply ?
I believe I answered Pat's question there, F.J. !
Did you read the whole thread or just figured you'd add your $.02 worth ?
I read your replies.
Perhaps others have information to contribute regarding the OP's question.
"Freighter Jim" You seem to be the only one bright enough to work out that my question never got answered. As I said above, wish i had never asked.
The thread got taken over by,...well,.. do they call that sort a "troll" ? Dork ? worse ?
Thought this place was civilised, I was wrong.
Wonder how this would go if we all together at an old car event?
We'd probably all get along fine, because we would not misread the
other guy as he speaks. Something gets lost without the inflection,
body language, gestures, tone, facial expressions ....
Maybe everybody was just trying to boost the number of posts to their profile?
Pat, I have a friend who is pretty well-versed in them, but he does NOT do computer--at all!
Between that and my dial-up, we're not much help at all! I think they were used in aftermarket heads on model As too, you might check over at fordbarn.
Ivan, Pat answered your question,early on, but after the other comments. This place really is civilized, try some of the other forums out there (not T forums). However, we do get off-track occasionally--Oh, a Train!! . . . .
Its amazing how a simple carefree post about a good deal between a willing seller and buyer, turns into a vitriolic mess this thread has now devolved into. I always thought our HOBBY was to share info and teach, not rip each other to shreds just for the sport of it.