Need some Pictures of 1909 engines.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Need some Pictures of 1909 engines.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, May 26, 2017 - 07:56 pm:

This is what I need to see, the differences between these engines and later engines...like did the engine change in 1910 or did it run through to 1912? and so forth.

The pictures I need to see are:
Front/timing cover, crank
Right side (manifolds)
Left side (water tube side)
Top with and without the head.
Bottom pan, crankshaft journals and bearing covers.
Hogs head cover.
Transmission...did it have 2 pedals or 3?
What the hell is the second lever for?
Were the pistons different from later years, were their connecting rods different?
How did the wishbone mount to the engine? Did they also have the ball cap with springs, nuts and shafts?

Also need the same pictures for later years as well and where they changed...I'm pretty sure that 1915-1921 or 22 are the same engine (they look the same to me), but I'm sure there are subtle differences in them and would really like to know what and where they are. I know that 23 and 24 are the same and possibly so is 25 as well. 26 and 27 are probably also the same the only difference being their transmission...but then again, I'm not sure.

Any and all pictures are greatly appreciated and if you can think of something I've not listed as something I need to see or if you believe it will clarify things better, please post it too...Thanks. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, May 26, 2017 - 08:05 pm:

Martin, one major thing for sure was that in early 1911 it went from the open valve block to the enclosed valve block. The transmission went to 3 pedals around car #750, in 1909. The two-pedal trans. had two levers, one for the rear brake, the other for neutral and reverse. The engine number boss was on the lower right front side up until around mid-1912 when it then was relocated to the left side of the engine, first aft of the water inlet, then finally for the rest of the Model T run, above the water inlet. That's about all my brain can handle at the moment! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, May 26, 2017 - 08:08 pm:

Don't forget the there was no boss on the very early engines, the number was stamped between the intake and exhaust ports.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, May 26, 2017 - 08:39 pm:

Best to go to the home page and check the encyclopedia, all your questions are answered there, like 09 changed in May 09 from the water pump block etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, May 26, 2017 - 11:43 pm:

I don't know what online encyclopedias you guys look at, but All the ones I have tried to look at don't give nearly enough of the minutia details. We have had several lengthy discussions about detail changes (both major and minor) over the years on this forum. One of the best comparing early blocks is this one:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/439961.html?1398269234

For the most part, that car that made fifteen million all alike? Didn't make so very many alike after all. It turns out, that the engine block itself was changed almost continuously, with only a couple places (in time) where a single model pattern went for fully two years or more. Most changes also involved two or more different mold patterns being used at the same times resulting in a lot of crossover times.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, May 27, 2017 - 12:09 am:

Martin, you may need Bruce W. McAlley's book "Model T Ford, The Car That Changed The World" or the CD his widow sells.
Everything is explained there with pictures.

And the second lever was used instead of the reverse pedal up to Model T #750 in February 1909. It turned out to be too dangerous to steer and handle the throttle with only one hand in reverse..

The special water pump block was used up to #2500, it had a very special head too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, May 27, 2017 - 03:16 am:

Tim, thanks for the explanation on the 2 lever...knew it had something to do with neutral but didn't realize it also worked the reverse...which explains the combo neutral pawl on the hand brake of later engines.
Were the shafts in the same place though? Just the reverse shaft was longer for the lever? Or was the lever on the other side of the pedals? Were the bands in the same positions as they are in later production years? And in the same order...I'm assuming they are, but I'm not sure.

Wayne, I expect crossovers there hasn't be an assembly yet (with the exception of the starter and maybe the generator) that haven't had their crossover during their production run.

Frank and Rodger, I have the digital version of the encyclopedia and the other McAlley books as well...but the pictures are not what I'm looking for...I need to see what this bloody engine looks like up close...I need to see it from the front, sides and top so I can see the nooks and cranny's that make up the details of this block.

I have already examined the information in McAlley's books, what I need are details that are not present in his books. In line art you see more detail than in photo art, especially b&w screened pictures. The ones Ford published, are small and not usually clean enough to see the details that I've found decry the differences between parts. It is usually in those details that such high contrast photos omit. They're meant to be used by professional mechanics who know the part numbers and already know where it goes, what it looks like and what year takes which...these are things I don't know.
I've put the engine assembly off until the last because I already am anticipating it to be a multi page complex set of drawings, that's likely to be a pain...I'm trying to get it down to 2 drawings (front and rear or transmission side), but I'm not sure if I can and still show in detail the parts as they should look without making them so small that they would be basically useless to show as an assembly.

I broke my drawings down to sub-assemblies for a reason...once I've got them all, I can make the Top Assembly, Chassis from years 1909-1927...and yes that's about 12 with what I know at the moment but I think it will be more as I get further into this.

The engine is probably the final frontier or sorts...it's the one piece of this car that I know has changed, but how and into what I'm not certain...telling me where or when it's changed is helpful, yes, but it isn't the same as showing me pictures of those changes. Just like b&w high contrast screened photos are not the same as seeing clean or gooey color shots of your engines and other assemblies (this is the way I drew the rear axle, I grabbed everyone's photos of the axles and figured the assembly from there)...I can discern a lot more from color photos than from screened b&w's.

Another point that sometimes is lost is that what is said it's supposed to be is sometimes quite different from what it actually was...which is what I'm interested in.

So if any of you early car guys have pictures of your tear-down and rebuild, please post them...I really need to see those details. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, May 27, 2017 - 12:41 pm:

Martin

These are early 1909 engine photos. Water pump, two lever,
















Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, May 27, 2017 - 12:47 pm:

Martin

Forgot to add, you should buy Gail Rodda's Vol. 3. The 1909 Production Model T. Has some many photos of all the unique parts in this first Ford.

Lang's (PART-G3) 52 pages. Great ref. as are all of his books.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, May 27, 2017 - 07:45 pm:

Thanks Dan, now this is what I'm talking about...I didn't know from any of the pictures I've seen so far that it had a water pump...and look at the out let flange...the head on my car is a low head too, but it's a 1914 low head and the front is totally different.
Wow, that 2 lever linkage is really complex looking too...this helps immensely I have 1 and 2 Rodda books, didn't know there was a 3, I'll get it as soon as I can. But for now I've got something to start with, thanks again Dan...why is there a pedal on the other side of the hogs head? What is that wheel looking thing on the inlet side of the engine...is that an oil filler spout? Because I don't see one on the manifold side of the engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, May 27, 2017 - 07:53 pm:

Woo, just noticed that then intake manifold is quit different too. Is that a tapper on the fan shaft?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, May 27, 2017 - 10:14 pm:

Martin

Lots of differences in the early 1909 as production changes occurred very soon after the first builds. By 750 or so the 2-pedal was gone, and by 2500 the water pump gone, so lots of block and other engine changes in a short time.

Here is very early one!











The shaft out the right side is the low speed adjuster, no pedal there. The two pedals are Low speed and Brake. The levers are Emergency Rear Brakes/Clutch and Reverse.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, May 27, 2017 - 10:19 pm:

Early block letter cylinder head!




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