EARLIEST KNOWN CANADIAN MODEL T C - ENGINE?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: EARLIEST KNOWN CANADIAN MODEL T C - ENGINE?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Monday, May 29, 2017 - 08:19 pm:

I need to double-check that C-227 remains the earliest known C-serial number on a car in the Southern Hemisphere?

Is anyone aware of an earlier C-number either a) in existence, or b) in a car in use?

Thanks in advance.

John Stokes
New Zealand

c227


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Brand on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 05:43 am:

Hello John.

If my memory is correct there are at least 2 double digit C prefix engines in Australia. One is in a restored car and the other was advertised several years ago. I'll try to find the info and let you know.

Andrew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 08:18 am:

What date is C227 John ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 10:16 am:

Only known dates are May 20, 1913 for C1 and July 31, 1913 for C1500 (maybe rounded off), as far as I know?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 - 04:11 pm:

Thanks Andrew - I look forward to hearing back about that!

Bob and Roger - what you say Roger is correct.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 07:28 am:

Were does the B series motor fit into the Canadian series


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 07:53 am:

Bob, I don't think it does in the C # series
A few are around pre C, if I remember rightly, Alan Bennetts 12 D&F chocolate van has or had a B# block


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 07:00 pm:

Spot on Frank. B597 Motor assembled 7 29 12 according to date stamped on trans shaft flange.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Brand on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 08:05 pm:

Hi John.

I've spoken to the owner of the restored 1913 Touring car. I saw the car many years ago and recalled the number as being thirty something. He has just confirmed it is C36. No photos are possible at this stage as the car is in storage. He also said that he has been told of a single digit block here.

Regards, Andrew.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 08:57 pm:

Thanks so much for that Andrew. On the strength of that, I shall alter the caption to 'oldest known in New Zealand'.

UNLESS.... anyone knows of an earlier one in NZ than C227???

Bob - to the best of my knowledge, the reason why some engines were given a B prefix remains unknown. If my memory is correct, it was Detroit who stamped the B-series numbers - so the distribution was widespread.

Thanks to everyone for the input.

Best wishes - John
New Zealand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 - 11:38 pm:

If I recall correctly (becoming more and more suspect?). The "B" series motors are Detroit's temporary solution for book-keeping while they were moving manufacturing facilities from one site to another. They were mostly issued in late 1912 ('13 model year).
The "C" series numbers are Canadian production. Again, if I recall correctly, the first three years (and maybe a little more) of model Ts, Canadian production used USA numbers. For duty (taxation) reasons, the less complete and less assembled a car was, the less the duty was. Some parts were being manufactured in Canada from the beginning of the model T, a carryover from the pre-model T manufacturing. Most notably the bodies, tops, wheels, and lamps for Canadian cars were made in Canada. Things like engines required major tooling work, and took a little longer. Parts like engine blocks had the "Made In USA" ground off and then shipped across the lake. According to excerpts of the ledgers that I have read (I have never had the opportunity to see the actual original ledgers), some early T engines were sent across complete with serial numbers. Others were not assembled, but serial numbers were assigned.
I cannot say I "know" when the "C" series numbers began? But I believe from several things I have read that it would have been about 1912. It is possible that some Canadian production could have had the USA "B" series numbers. These changes in production facilities and book-keeping were done in a few months, and all USA production was back to a "corrected" original serial number series, and Canadian production was using their own "C" serial numbers at about the same time. Bruce McCalley's big book says that the "B" series ran from about October '12 through December '12. However, the exact dates were not known at the time of its writing. (I don't know if better dates are known now or not.) (I had thought it was a little earlier, but I just looked in the book myself.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod McKenzie on Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 01:21 am:

The earliest known engine number to the MTFCNZ register is C227 as John has pointed out. The "B" series engines were made in 1912 and a number came to NZ and were likely sourced from Canada. There have been a number of articles on the forum in the past about them, and I think that Hap Tucker has covered their manufacture well, dates, numbers produced, etc. It may be worth going back to those historical notes in earlier forum articles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Martin, Sydney Australia on Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 02:05 am:

I have C3838, I am fairly sure the casting date is March 1913. It's in storage at the moment so I'll have to check on that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 03:08 am:

Model T Ford Forum: 1912 B series Engines
Link : http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/36425.html?1194340610


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 03:46 am:

Peter: It's not unusual with casting dates several months before assembly on Canadian engines. They were casting lots of engines during the winter months that were assembled later during the sales season.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 05:41 am:

In no particular order....

Roger - remember that Canada was in the unique position of having constant demand all year round - when Canadians were in hibernation the Southern Hemisphere markets were in summer and demanding cars!

John Page - thank you for finding that link - it is an interesting one. Indeed I think that my very first exposure to this wonderful forum was when I questioned what the B-Series engines were all about. Wow I have learned so much from this forum over that time. Lovely to see contributions from the master himself, the late Bruce McCalley, now admirably taken over by young Hap Tucker.

Rod - will you tell Barry Thoms that we've located an earlier C-number than his? I'm too scared!!!

Wayne - the first C-number was allocated on 1st May, 1913. The first 1,500 were issued by 31 July.

Peter - C3838 was allocated in the year 1 August, 1913 to 31 July, 1914. On 31 July, 1914 C16500 was allocated. I'm guessing C3838 was probably issued in September, 1913 - but it can only be a guess, and is based on an ever-increasing rate of production.

Best wishes - John
New Zealand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 07:20 am:

John, I can safely tell Barry from here!

Allan from over the ditch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Carter - South Jersey on Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 07:36 am:

Our 1913 Canadian block was cast in May and the car was assembled in mid-August. I believe these blocks were cast in the US and they were probably brought to Canada in lots. The order they were used was probably not in casting date order.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen McConachie on Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 07:54 am:

Hi John
One of the guys here in Dunedin is running B320 if that helps your records

Cheers Glen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Thursday, June 01, 2017 - 08:12 am:

Allan Bennett refers to another date on B597 that may be found on the C production as well. It may confirm or help fill in some approximate dates of engine assembly for some of you fellows with C engines.

The transmission stub shaft is dated with the date of the transmission assembly on the regular US engines and the B series too. It shows up as follows on a July 1913 US car:



According to Bruce's Book of US serial number listings, the engine with this stub shaft was assembled six days later on July 17, 1913. Block casting date is June 1913.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rod McKenzie on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 01:12 am:

There are 10 [now 11, thanks to Glen] B series engines noted in the MTFCNZ register, all between B95 and B6609. There have been none show up after that up to B12000. What number is the earlier C series engine you have found John? Just for the records ...... And Alan, I'd be happier if you were to advise Barry from some 3 or 4 thousand miles distance about the earlier number. I see a hernia coming on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Glen McConachie on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 05:48 am:

I had a typo there guys, should have been C 320. Sorry for adding a red herring

Cheers
Glen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 05:26 pm:

Rod - not Glen's comment just above.

As for the earliest C engine, I understood Barry's car C227 was the earliest in the southern hemisphere. Obviously, since then, earlier C-engines have been found. Andrew Brand, from Melbourne, is aware of C36 in a restored car (but has not identified the owner).

What we do know from Barry is his car's history from new, when it was first sold by Wackrell and Stewart in Feilding. The engine that came with the new car is the same engine that powers the car today.

I have altered the caption for Barry's car to say it is the earliest known in NZ.

Best wishes - John


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