It won't work!

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: It won't work!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Alan Kahle on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 09:50 am:

Having owned Model T Fords for several decades it has always troubled me that such a dirty engine/transmission did not have the luxury of an oil filter.
While rebuilding the engine of my '14 touring several years ago I had many evenings to consider the problem and came up with numerous problematic or impossible or expensive possibilities.
The parameters of my quest included absolute reliability, not modifying the automobile in any significant way, affordability, and ease of installation and removal.
That was a tall order but it I finally concluded that the only logical energy available to pull it off was intake manifold vacuum. I didn't really know how much vacuum a Model T engine was able to sustain but after the rebuild (having tapped a port into the back side of the manifold) I found that vacuum levels of over 20" of mercury were common when the throttle was closed.
I completed one prototype system on the old '14 and find it to perform far beyond expectation.
I have demonstrated the filter/pump system to several Model T'ers and they seem to be equally impressed however the "experts" I have talked to about it absolutely dismiss the idea as impossible assuming that it either doesn't work or that surely if it did,someone would have made one before this.
I looked into a patent (I have several in other fields) but the cost is prohibitive and I really don't need the complication at this time in my life, but I would sure hate it if I croaked and hadn't shared my experience.
Is anyone interested or curious?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 09:55 am:

David, there will be naysayers as well as proponents of anything done on a T. Post your info (with a thick skin) so others who may be interested can learn from your experience.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Alan Kahle on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 10:00 am:

Gary, I've been married for almost fifty years, have three children and and almost fifty employees, trust me, my skin is so thick there almost isn't room enough for the rest of me!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 10:25 am:

David
I really like your concept. Considering that lots of other early cars used vacuum tanks as fuel pumps, I can certainly believe that your idea works. Thinking about it quickly I can think of a couple of possibilities;
1. "Bleed" a bit of vacuum to constantly run a vane motor to run a small gear pump. Or a variation of this
2. A variation of the vacuum fuel system
3. Probably other approaches as well
Anyway I'm very interested in what you have done. I would be prepared to build and install on my stock cars
Thx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Alan Kahle on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 10:34 am:

Les, The fundamental idea is to utilize vacuum at the maximum level (throttle closed) to move oil through a filter and into a reservoir which hangs from the radiator support rod just above the front main bearing and when vacuum is reduced to a pre-determined level to allow the now cleaned oil to drain into the front of the engine - think uphill with throttle fully open. It kills a number of birds with one stone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 10:41 am:

Interesting. Given the heavy lint that accumulates in a hogshead inspection screen (with the potential to clog the internal oil line funnel), will your filter suck that through its line, or is the screen still intended to catch the heaviest debris and your filter to clear out the fine particles the screen is not capable of catching?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 10:47 am:

I like the idea to prolong the life of the engine - the oil filter (and the air filter) is probably what has made the most difference in prolonging engine life during the 20:th century.
The centrifugal pump action of the flywheel is another way to get some force on the oil - a high flow accessory oil pipe that's mounted directly over the flywheel would probably have enough force at higher rpms to flow the oil through a simple filter.

Since your version dumps the oil in the front of the engine it fills two purposes - would be interesting to learn more about it :-)

(Message edited by Roger K on June 03, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Alan Kahle on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 10:52 am:

Walter, In the interest of not molesting the engine I decided to use the oil drain plug as the source for the "to be filtered" oil. Along with not modifying the engine this seems to me to be the location of the dirtiest oil in the engine/transmission and therefore the most likely source. I simply drill and tap the plug to 1/4"npt and install a hydraulic swivel fitting and hose to transfer the oil to a remote oil filter clamped onto the frame in the vicinity of the plug. As such, your existing screen and both internal and external oil lines remain operational and will work in tandem with my system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 10:57 am:

What moves the oil?? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Alan Kahle on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 11:01 am:

Ken, Just simple old vacuum - think milkshake Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 11:24 am:

I realize it's probably the best spot for a pick up but what concerns me is it's at one of the lowest points on the drive train and in a spot possibly prone to damage/oil loss.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Alan Kahle on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 11:28 am:

Charlie, That's the reason I used hydraulic fittings and hose. The flexibility provides strain relief. It's overkill from an engineering standpoint but as close to bulletproof as I know how to make it on the practical application side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom 30 miles N of Memphis TN on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 04:48 pm:

Just do it. It was over ten years ago I decided I wanted an external oil line but didn't want to remove the hogsheads to install the fitting and still don't care for the mag pick up lines. I didn't ask anyone as there would have been reasons as to why what I was thinking wouldn't work. So, i just did it. I came up with the Bendix cover oiler and it moves a bunch of oil. Just do it. You're reasoning is solid.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Alan Kahle on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 06:03 pm:

Gary, when the oil is warm it will fill the reservoir (approx. 8 fl. Oz.) in less than thirty seconds at fast idle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 07:53 pm:

David, I am not an engineer and have a lot to learn when it comes to items of a design nature installed on early cars. A case in point is the lubrication process installed on my 1927 Marmon E-75. The pressurized lubrication system is run off a vacuum pump installed in the pan. When starting the engine cold, it takes several minutes to get oil pressure which usually runs between 20-35 pounds. Also incorporated in the oil distribution process is a filter (sounds something like what you have) that was supposed to pass oil through a warming tank to eliminate condensation etc. Most Marmon owners seemed to have by-passed this process as mine was years ago. You may want to research Marmon in the mid to late 20's to see if they had something like you have designed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Alan Kahle on Saturday, June 03, 2017 - 08:35 pm:

Dick, I suspect the only commonality with the Marmon system is the use of vacuum as an energy source. This system has no pump, per se, but uses manifold vacuum to draw the oil through an ordinary spin on oil filter (napa 1515) and delivers it to the reservoir which feeds the front of the engine when the manifold vacuum is reduced to a preset level. I have it adjusted to fill at vacuums of above 10 inches of mercury and to empty when the level goes below that. As I stated in an earlier post, this system does not replace any of the existing lube systems but acts as an auxiliary to them and supplies additional oil when the throttle is fully advanced as in uphill driving.
Thanks for the Marmon reference - I'll make it a point to study it asap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sharon Miller on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 12:28 pm:

David,

I am really liking this idea. You have spent a lot of time thinking and designing this system. Are you going to sell plans or are you just sharing them? How do you prevent sucking oil out of the canister and into the manifold? Are you using a float valve of some kind? How are you tapping into the front of the block? Is it a tee into the existing external oil line from the hog's head? How have you set up to "limit" vacuum on the canister? Thank you for posting this idea and explaining it so well. Terry Miller


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Kahle on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 03:44 pm:

Terry, I did fabricate a float valve to stop oil being sucked into the manifold. My valve uses a Teflon ball and seat which is actuated with a synthetic float (cork would work - no ethanol) To deliver the oil to the engine I tried teeing into the outside oil line but found that there is just enough pressure there to prevent a good gravity flow of oil from the reservoir so I fabricated a part that slips into place where the oil filler cap goes and the cap then installs into it. That part also has to have a zero back pressure check valve to permit the oil to flow but prevent the vacuum from leaking during the fill cycle. Believe it or not that check valve caused me the most headaches. Another difficulty was the vacuum control valve. I looked everywhere and couldn't even find anyone who understood what I was trying to accomplish let alone have the hardware to do it. I was able to modify a pneumatic three way pilot valve to make it do what I wanted and it has an adjustable set point to accommodate various types of driving. As I said I have mine set to divert at about 10 inches of mercury and that seems to provide the best performance. I also built an optional mechanical valve that is simpler to understand. It doesn't rely on vacuum to operate but rather operates from a cam positioned on the throttle rod near the firewall. The cam can be rotated on the shaft to provide actuation at whatever throttle position is desired. The logic is that the container should fill anytime the throttle is less than half open and empty at or near full throttle to provide extra clean oil to the front of the engine on the all too common full throttle hill climbs. I really don't have plans and also don't know whether I may manufacture and sell the more difficult parts to build or what I will do. I simply posted this thread to see if there was any interest and we'll go from there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 05:10 pm:

I hope this isn't too far off subject. I didn't read this entire thread.

FWIW This is one of my "oil pumps". I drilled the drain plug to use as a pick-up point and send oil from there through a filter, engine driven pump, and to a pressurized Model A crank with inserted mains. I also have an electric pump to pressurize the system prior to starting. The pictured "pump" ensures an oil supply to the engine pump. This is not "era correct" but neither is my air conditioner, turn signals or 12V alternator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don - Conroe, TX on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 08:48 pm:

I'm just thinking out loud here...so go easy on me.

What about something like a fish tank pump that draws oil from a drilled and tapped oil drain plug, that pushes said oil through a filter, then dumps it in the location of your choice (like a fitting inserted into one of the transmission cover screw holes...or up to the front of the engine)

You'd have to run power to the pump.

But, you could rig up a running system without cutting up or destroying anything.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Keller on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 09:28 pm:

I would love to purchase plans/ a complete setup to put on my 27 speedster.
James


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 11:37 pm:

I was looking at a Stewart vacuum operated "gasoline pump " from a early car that I have on the shelf. Seems like it could be utilized and would provide more or less continuous circulation


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 12:45 am:

I put a fitting next to the ring gear that moves a lot of oil, I could probably add a filter of some sort. Your Idea sounds good in the fact that you could add it at any time. I did this when I had the engine apart.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sullivan on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 01:51 pm:

How about a piston pump powered by vacuum? I wonder if the above mentioned Marmon is built like that. I've been thinking of a similar system, wondering how to power it, but never thought of operating it with vacuum, sounds good to me. Dave in Bellingham,WA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Kahle on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 04:24 pm:

David, The issue is that using vacuum to do the work is fine as long as the throttle plate is closed and the car is decelerating but when the throttle is opened the engine requires all the vacuum it can generate for operation. The system I have built only pumps during high vacuum (throttle closed)and closes when the engine is called on to provide power.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 04:36 pm:

What about just running a small, commercially available gear pump off a modified front pulley via a narrow cog belt?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Kahle on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 05:27 pm:

Jerry, My goal was to make something that worked well but, even more, something that could be easily installed and uninstalled and didn't look "out of place" on a Model T. I didn't want to have to modify the car in any way. Your idea would work well but I think would require considerable fabrication and installation and I'm not certain of the expense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Clary on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 06:18 pm:

I would suggest a screen filter rather than a spin on. A spin on can have considerable restriction while a screen can get out the big chunks. I have seen several T's with bypass filters fed a number of ways. While this concept may filter what oil it draws you would be ahead changing your oil more often.


Andy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Kahle on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 08:21 pm:

Andy, I agree with everything you said but really you don't have to choose between a screen or a filter - both work well together. I would contend several things. One - even clean oil in a Model T engine isn't clean. You can't drain it all out and so with brand new oil it is just dirty and after a few hundred miles it is plain filthy. Second - the large chunks obviously are the culprits that plug up the oil lines leading to failure, but really it is the microscopic dirt that can invade and destroy the bearing surfaces. Even with the filter and screen in place I still change the oil and filter after several hundred miles. Five bucks is cheap insurance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Conklin on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 10:21 pm:

I have the drilled drain plug that Dave Kahle mentioned. The pressure is low so mount the filter and oil return as low as possible. I also use short pieces of wire to hold the "rubber" check valve open, so it doesn't act as a pressure reducer.
One of the old speedster/racer books mentions using a drilled drain plug with the slotted disc above it (part of the pan) bent so as to act as a scoop.
The above assumes the magnets are still on the fly wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vieux Carre on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 11:38 pm:

Just an idea for the pump...
Vern
Vacuum oil pump


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration