Canadian 1916-17 production

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Canadian 1916-17 production
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 01:50 am:

What was the last year Canadian produced cars used a brass radiator? I would suspect 1916, like U.S. production. There is a touring on T-Bay that is advertised as a 1916, but it has a black radiator and shell like U.S. production used in 1917. I sent the seller an FYI informing him of my suspicions and he defiantly informed me that it was a 1916 and Canadian cars changed a year before the U.S. did. It doesn't make sense to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 02:28 am:

I would assume he's basing the year on the casting date, 17 fiscal year would have 16 dates to start the new black radiator T, ask for the casting date and engine number, it might help.
As for a year earlier for the change, definitely didn't happen for us down under, with the war in play and other issues at the time, we didn't get the black radiator model until September 1917, released as the all new 1918 model.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 03:02 am:

Terry, I found it on Ebay, hard to read but looks like October 16 casting date, so a 1917 model it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 03:12 am:

It used to be, that a lot of people truly believed that the brass Ts ended early in calendar 1916. I was told by a lot of hobbyists that most 1916 Ts were black shell cars. But, that was in the late '60s and early '70s. It didn't take long for me to find that they were wrong. Unfortunately, a lot of people are not open to the simple fact that they could ever be misinformed about something. Once they get it in their head that something is what they were told it is? No number of people politely telling them the truth, and no amount of proof, will ever change their minds. I have seen too many examples of this in this hobby over the years. The "black" 1916 model Ts are a common one. Although less so today, than forty years ago.
The silly and frustrating part of this, is that the most closed-minded people tend to be the most rude in their response to a friendly bit of fact.
I used to occasionally send information to eBad sellers. A few actually thanked me, and one corresponded with me for almost a year about the car he was trying to sell. He also corrected his listing right away. (I wish I could have helped him more.) However, a lot more of them sent me scathing responses, and even threatened to have me banned from ebay for life. I always tried to be nice and polite. Really I did. Mostly, I just laugh and ignore their response.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 03:15 am:

Here is a picture of two Canadian fords that appear to be 1916, possibly late 1916, as they have the black head light rims and oil side lights. The radiators are brass. These two cars are in Saskatchewan Canada.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, June 04, 2017 - 04:57 pm:

Terry,

Ford of Canada did make some changes earlier than the USA --for example they introduced a one man top and slanted windshield on the touring and runabout with the 1920 model year.

Some changes were made around the same time as the USA (ok, the exact same time when they were using fully assembled USA engines with USA serial numbers that were shipped to Ford of Canada for installation 1909-into 1913 production).

And other changes occurred later than the USA such as the use of ribbed transmission pedals into the 1920s.

And some parts were never used in the USA production such as the horn button mounted on the steering wheel, the function door on the left side from 1912 to 1925, the belt driven generator used briefly for RHD cars equipped with a starter & generator, etc.

In the case of Canada production switching from the brass radiator to the black steel radiator, the page below is from the Jan 1, 1925 Canadian Price List of Parts.



It shows the brass radiators 1909-1916
Low radiators 1917-1923
and High radiators 1923-24 (they also fit the 1925-27 but this price list was published to be effective Jan 1, 1925 so the 1926 models were still in the future.)

The MTFCI judging guidelines also show the Canadian 1916 model year cars had the brass radiators and 1917 Canadian cars had the black radiator.

Note while many folks would really like for all high radiator cars produced during calendar year 1923 to be called a 1924 car, Ford evidently didn't use that distinction in this Price List of Parts. Apparently that is also true for USA Price List of Parts that I looked at -- effective Aug 5, 1928 as it also showed the same dates for the radiators with both the low and high listed in 1923).

In the case of the car on e-bay, the seller may have a 1917 model year car that was produced late in 1916 calendar year. But we don't know what the engine serial number is (i.e. it should normally start with a "C" by that date) and we don't have a nice clear photo of the casting date either. But if Frank saw the actual casting date -- then that is one possibility. If you look at page 540 of Bruce McCalley's book "Model T Ford" you will see that in the small sample size Bruce has, the casting dates compared to the serial number date is often out of order. I.e. it appears Canadian blocks were stored and not necessarily taken out in the order they were cast for machining and to be stamped with a "C" serial number etc. and installed in vehicle.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 05:16 pm:

It took three months at the most (usually 2˝ months) to ship a new Model T from Windsor to New Zealand.

Sales in New Zealand were strong through that period - we could not get enough of them, so there would not be a lag to speak of, between production and delivery. The first advertisement in NZ for the black cars (with streamlined radiator) was mid-April, 1917.

advert


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 - 10:50 am:

Can anyone tell me roughly where this car is for sale? I have a friend who has a '17 Touring who was thinking of selling some cars. He insists that his car is a '16.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 - 06:22 pm:

Dave,

If you mean the car on e-bay, the listing has:

nice original Canadian built model T touring---been driven regularly in a museum setting--new tires---needs top bows and body irons installed to finish car---any questions call Fred at 1-403-5484789---car located in Medicine Hat Alberta Canada---will help in possibly delivery of car

And the complete listing is located at: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1916-Ford-Model-T-/332249586679?hash=item4d5b9e5bf7:g:lY 0AAOSwq1JZMjTj&vxp=mtr

As mentioned above, the 1917 model year cars were sold in the fall of 1916. So it is possible that someone purchased a 1917 model year with the black radiator and titled it as a 1916 because they purchased it in Sep - Oct etc. of 1916.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 - 06:54 pm:

Referring to my earlier comment that the first of the new style (ie black cars) did not arrive here until mid-April, 1917.

In a completely separate discussion I am having with Peter Kable, I have tripped over an advertisement for the new style car in January, 1917. He and I are looking for "domed mudguards".

The advert was placed in the classified columns (ie not a display advert), by just one NZ agent (Souters in Auckland who, co-incidentally, were about to surrender their Ford agency licence), for a week or so in January, 1917. Then nothing! No further mention! Not a sausage. Until mid-April, and that is when we find lots of display adverts for "The new style for has arrived".

So, my original comment still stands, I think. Something funny was going on at Souters, but we don't know what.

But just in case anyone wants to take my comment as verbatim, before you do so it may pay to check further. Right now I don't have the time to do so.

John Stokes
New Zealand


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 - 10:12 pm:

Dave, While Canadian cars are different from US production, your friend's '17 could have been built in the late '16 calendar year, leading to the confusion..
As for other '16 signs, I don't know when Canada dropped the brass headlight rims and the brass sidelamp tops, basically in US this was around September 1915(no book handy to check). My US Touring was made in Dec '15, but it's definitely a '16 year model! I wouldn't even worry about the Dec '15 construction date except it makes my '16 HCCA qualified! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 - 07:29 pm:

To Hap Tucker...

Hap, I had sent you an email a couple of weeks ago, attaching a photo we know was taken in NZ in January, 1917 of a 1917 car (yet the fist of them didn't arrive here until April, 1917).

Mystery probably solved - I've just twigged! The car in the photo is possibly from Souters (see my comment above) - maybe they just had one or two examples. There is no other reference to these cars until April.

Indeed, having now looked at other photos of the Souter brothers, the driver of the T could be either one of them! (They had good reason to be on the tour too - they were also the Ford agents for Northland!). I shall explore that further.

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 - 07:46 pm:

Another part of the mystery solved...

I just found this advertisement - it makes it fairly clear that, indeed, Souters imported their 1917 car directly.

1917 advert


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 - 09:05 pm:

John,

Please confirm the date of the Souter & Co advertisement above that says they have "landed direct, the 1917 touring car..." I suspect that is the one you commented on as being in Jan 1917 -- but I would like to make sure I understand that correctly. Also if you can share the news paper etc. it was published in.

I didn't remember seeing a photo from you of a 1917. Of course memory is not as good as it once was.... Oh well. But I also looked for an e-mail from you or one that I would have sent saying thank you etc. and I did not see one. So, if you have time, please resend. My e-mail address is in my profile, the 3rd line down.

And thank you for sharing your discoveries. We are seeing more and more puzzle pieces that have been buried away in news papers, attics etc that are now being made available because of the internet. And I think we are all better off for that.

Note, David Roberts' book "In the Shadow of Detroit" on page 68 shows the numbers of cars and chassis exported to Australia, New Zealand and other locations for 1 Aug to 31 Jul for the fiscal years 1911-12 to 1920 when they switched to calendar years. The table stops at 1923.

For New Zealand 1 Aug 1916 to 31 Jul 1917 they export sales were 958 passenger cars and 44 chassis. And for 1 Aug 1917 to 31 Jul 1918 1,048 cars and 84 chassis and 7 trucks (chassis).

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 - 11:56 pm:

Hi Hap - I shall re-send it.

See below for advertisement details.

You'll notice in the first advert (top left) he refers to 'Ford New Pattern Car' and the next advert on 29 Jan, it is still singular. His Dodges are plural - but not so the Ford.

The more I look at the arrival of the first 1917 cars here, the more that I am convinced that Souters brought in ONE example, from somewhere unknown, and probably for the 1917 Parliamentary Tour. That tour departed Auckland on 16 January, 1917. The first advert for the car ran on 15 January (see below). Then nothing until 29 January! The tour was two weeks duration. It fits perfectly.

The driver of the car looks like either of the Souters - and they always seem a bit scruffy in appearance - a bit like this driver!

When I grow up I am going to be Perry Mason.

I shall send you this wee document as a PDF for your records.

John

1917 Cars


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 12:00 am:

Oooops - Hap...

The advert above 7 June at 07:46 - that advert ran on 17 March, 1917, in the NZ Herald. It was about the last of them.

And the 'scruffy driver' will be in the email that I'll re-send you right now.

John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 12:19 am:

Not all places would title the car as a 1917 if it was sold in calendar year 1916, it would have been a 1916 no matter the radiator. True it is a new 1917 model.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 07:06 am:

Finally found the email Hap - sitting in my 'Drafts' folder. Sorry! Now sent. John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 11:59 am:

I might as well post these photos here. These are mainly for Hap who is researching Canadian cars. I found this car at a recent event. It appears to be very original except for the top and seat covers. Even has the original dash. Hap, I tried to photograph areas you might find important. Enjoy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 12:01 pm:

More photos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 05:14 pm:

Nice car you found, Dave. C169466 would be from spring/summer of 1918, I think?
Then we know dimmer coils weren't introduced yet by then in Canadian production. Did it have round felloe wheels?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 09:59 pm:

Hey Roger. I didn't look up the date on it myself so it might be an '18 as you say. It did have square felloe wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, June 11, 2017 - 09:06 pm:

Dave.

Thank you so much for posting the photos of the 1917ish touring. Yes, I am trying to obtain additional information on Canadian as well as other T’s. There is always so much more to learn. Sorry for the long delay in saying thanks! Work and the “honey-do-list” keep me busier than I would like sometimes. But life is good. If you have any other photos or if you have higher resolution (i.e. not compressed so they will post on the forum) copies of the ones you posted would you please e-mail them to me? You can click on my name and it brings up my profile and my e-mail address is the third line down. Please limit any single e-mail to under 10mb and it should go through ok.


Roger,

I always appreciate your postings. You shared 169466 was probably the “spring/summer of 1918.” I think the ID Patent plate is stamped 56 instead of 66 at the end – but that won’t change anything date wise. And I will assume that is the same number as the one stamped on the engine -- it should be for a Canadian produced car if the engine is original to the chassis. Steve Miller kindly sent us the listing below that he received from the Ford of Canada Archives. Posted the later serial numbers also as someone might want those at a later date.





If I am reading it correctly it agrees with you and it shows that the engine would have been produced at the end of Jul 1918. But we don’t know how long from engine assembly and stamping the number onto the engine to when it would have been dropped into a car. But clearly after Jun 1918 sometime and possibly after Jul 1918 sometime.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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