Band Linings making me Crazy

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Band Linings making me Crazy
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 11:36 am:

I relined my Ford detachable bands with Kevlar linings. Have done this installation before and with no problems on my other T. I'm a good driver and also have never had problems with driving with Kevlar.

This time was different. I had to use a clamp to get them tight enough to wire up ... and then when I installed the hogs head fitting to the springs and getting the nuts on was a nightmare. The nuts are on the last threads of the shafts and the bands are making full contact with the drums

I installed the engine, put in some oil and and tried pulling on the crank and the engine turned, but it took a lot of effort. I'm afraid of the consequences of starting this engine in this condition. Can't imaging I'll get any oil between the bands and the drums.

My sense was that these Kevlar linings were actually thicker material than the ones I had used in the past. Is this possible? What now? Sounds like I'm going to need to remove the hogs head ... toss those linings and either find where to get thinner Kevlar ... or standard cotton.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 11:58 am:

You can never go wrong with OE cotton bands. You're asking for possible trouble with Kevlar...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 12:05 pm:

I have has similar problems in the past but with the old Wards type cotton lining. If you are using quick change bands make sure the buttons/slots are fully engaged. Even if the bands are a little out of round you should still get more threads thru the nut then what you are describing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 12:09 pm:

These had the long locking channel bands not the buttons. I am going to remove these and use standard non detachable bands since I prefer removing the hogs head anyway. Guess I'll go back to the old standby Scandinavian linings. Put I did want to know if anyone had this experience with Kevlar .. to establish if these came from a bad batch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 12:22 pm:

Mark O, I just got a set from Bob's (which came from a place in California I believe), I had no trouble with them with my Ford detachable bands. This was my first interaction with Kevlar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 12:28 pm:

Count me as a skeptic on the "too thick" theory, but you can check it out. The Kevlar linings I've installed in my 1915 roadster and my 1923 touring in recent years measure about .020". You can measure yours for comparison.


In neither case have I had any problem with the bands being too tight. My hunch is that your problem is caused by something else.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard, Fredericksburg Va on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 12:31 pm:

That looks like .200" Steve.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 12:46 pm:

OOooops! Yes, it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By RJ Walworth, New York on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 01:57 pm:

actually it look like .1997


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie, Memphis TN on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 02:37 pm:

Just because someone indicated above that you are asking for trouble with Kevlar bands, I thought I'd tell you that I have been running them in my T for 12 years with no trouble.

I would have to agree there's something awry other than the fact that the bands are Kevlar.

For what it's worth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 02:51 pm:

Steve ... what other problem could it be? Stock drums, stock bands. Attached them from the ends inward as always. Can't understand why they are so tight to the drums. Maybe I needed to pound them down with a hammer.

Loved the Kevlar in my other T. This was just a problem that I didn't understand with these. Bob said they are the same as he has always sold and has no problems. So, I guess I'll crank it up and hope it doesn't hurt my drums.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 03:04 pm:

I don't know either, without being there and digging into it. I just have a strong suspicion that it will turn out to be something other than liner thickness. Is there no free play in the pedals, no matter how loose you adjust the bands?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 03:32 pm:

I have almost always used original Scandinavian or Wards bands. One of the issues with the original bands was a lot of the time they were too short. I discovered if I ran the band material thru my sheet metal slip roll with the rollers almost touching or set at zero clearance it would roll out or flatten the bands back to a correct length. It also has the benefit of "pre setting" the band material so a re-adjustment after a short driving period is not usually needed. I have used Kevlar a couple times and I have also ran the new Kevlar bands thru the slip roll before using them. I have had no problem with them yet. My theory on the old original bands is that the weave of the lining has "relaxed" over the many years of storage. That could cause the bands to be too short, or too thick as Mark G. has found on some of his original Wards bands. It may be the weave of your Kevlar bands has relaxed ?????. Since I started using the slip roll on my bands I always roll them out just as a precaution or to "pre-set" them. This may have nothing to do with your problem, and it could be some other issue as others have mentioned, but it gives something to think about. have fun and be safe Donnie Brown


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 04:25 pm:

I have no experience with Kevlar, but I do recall a recent post that showed kevlar linings that had been installed on the bands and laid by for future use that had shrunk enough to pull away from the band. I believe Donnie's method of running new band material "through the wringer' is an excellent idea that should ease the minor difficulties of getting new linings "broke in". I wouldn't be surprised to find woven linings have swelled or shrunk in storage due to ambient change.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 05:29 pm:


Typically there's so much lining material that it bulges, and you have to mash it down. I'm surprised that it would ever shrink enough to pull away from the band.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 05:35 pm:

That is a great idea. Yes, I relined the bands a couple of months ago when I had nothing else to do. Let them sit and installed them on Saturday. They did look puffy except where I pounded the rivets. So I suspect that it my problem.

Compressing any lined bands in a roller press just before installing them sounds like a great idea.

But as it is ... they are in the transmission buttoned up under the hogs head. I plan to coat the linings repeatedly with oil. Then I'll clamp them tight with the shaft nuts for about a week. This should help to compress the linings enough to start the engine with as little drag as possible when I loosen the nuts again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 05:38 pm:

Rich, that was this post: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/708324/748697.html?1493209841

And it was not a kelver band.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 06:23 pm:

Some of the old Wards bands were about 1/2 inch too short to allow any overhang at the ends and still lay down flat. By "rolling' them they would end up about 3/4 inch too long. That allows about the right amount to set a little overhang at the ends and then still have a loop to work back into the curve. Before "rolling" the band material has a little bit of a rougher "feel" and you have a slight "texture" to the weave. After "rolling" the material, it has a more uniform feel to the thickness and the texture is smoother with a "firm" feel to the material. I am not talking about a huge difference to the "feel" but it is enough that you can tell the difference. More than likely one of the original manufacturing steps was to "roll" them thru rollers to achieve a uniform thickness to the material when new. Thru the years, they probably "relaxed". It works like a charm for me, but as they say "your mileage may vary" :-) :-) have fun and be safe Donnie Brown .... Oh yea, here is my disclaimer... This may not have anything to do with your problem, I had my back worked on today and Im not supposed to do anything for a couple days, so I may be just bored or drugged out and in a "happy place" :-) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 06:28 pm:

That is a great idea. Yes, I relined the bands a couple of months ago when I had nothing else to do. Let them sit and installed them on Saturday. They did look puffy except where I pounded the rivets. So I suspect that it my problem.

Compressing any lined bands in a roller press just before installing them sounds like a great idea.

But as it is ... they are in the transmission buttoned up under the hogs head. I plan to coat the linings repeatedly with oil. Then I'll clamp them tight with the shaft nuts for about a week. This should help to compress the linings enough to start the engine with as little drag as possible when I loosen the nuts again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 06:44 pm:

Chad, thanks for the correction. Dunno why I recalled that as being a Kevlar band ?? "Senior moment" ? Hoof-in-mouth disease ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard E Moore Jr. Pickwick lake Tenn. on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 07:57 pm:

Wood


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 09:20 pm:

A good friend and recognized T man told me to make sure the bands are round prior to installing band lining. It kind of made sense to me. If the bands are somewhat oval, the sides would touch when you tried to install the adjusting nut. The nut would have to compress the band just to get it on. Made sense to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Monday, June 05, 2017 - 09:40 pm:

I don't think being a little oval would account for how little he can pull the ears together. Even being oval you should be able to pull them around more then what Mark is getting.

Rich when you posted that I was think my posting was what your were talking about.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 - 08:27 am:

Here is what they looked like when I lined them. Look a little puffy. Clamping around a drum for a week would have helped I think. Also as installed.

Bands

Installed


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 - 09:11 am:

Any chance that in pulling them thru the door and around that nice round set shown wound up being a letter "J" and then the clip end was just mashed down to add the clip?

Thats one thing no band likes as it then drags 'somewhere'. Now it then boils down to forgiveness if that is what did happen. Kevlar is unforgiving...wood will chirp a bit...and cotton just wears thinner until it fits.

For decent performance, the steel rings have to stay round regardless of material. Keeping them round 'through the door' is difficult but CAN be done. The brake band is duck soup to keep round 'through the door'...the low speed band likewise...the reverse band on the other hand has maybe but a few thousandth's clearance from some boss you can never see...BUT it can be done! Jiggle here, jiggle there, curse, curse some more, jiggle some more and then wallah...in place and still totally round!

Now back to the hogshead. When we relined Edisons 'summer' car for NPS up at Glenmont NJ...I was adamant they stay round so the job of putting them in went to me. That last one was virtually impossible, but I knew it could be done. 2-1/2 hours into it, sore and cussing...I needed a break. When I came back in the carriage house, Bob Jablonski had takeover the wiggle and tug duty and 10 minutes in...BINGO,dropped in place.

The next car I did later that year I simply decided to take the hogshead off as I knew I could do that in sub-2 hours. I did, it did, but I strained my knee lifting the hogshead up and over the steering wheel side and twisting to set it down. Always learning...lol

p.s. I'm an equal opportunity band user for my cars and for others cars I work on. I have no actual performance preference... Final story for the day...I sneak up on Kevlar tightening, even if it takes me 4 times at the outset. Never had a problem with Kevlar...but someone asked me to borrow a car for a show...he got the trailer too...and when the show was over he went to load the T without a running start on the ramps. He claimed it was slipping, so he pulled down a bit on the low speed band! It chugged right up the ramps! He dropped it off without unloading the trailer. I went to get it off the trailer later and...all it wanted to do was go forward...lol. No damage done, reset it. Point of story? You need to respect Kevlar...but more than a few so-called experienced and expert T guys think it should behave like cotton! I don't lend out T's anymore...lol


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 - 10:18 am:

Mark

For comparison, look at "what did you do to your Ford today" thread. Review what Dan Treace has done with his bands. Now review yours and tell us that there is any difference at all in installation and nut tightness.

I think you're suffering from heebie-jeebies unnecessarily.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 - 11:20 am:

Believe Mark is using the "longer spring" that a vendor sells for concerns about dragging Kevlar on the drum.



Have used those before, and they really push the ears apart, and leave little amount of threaded pedal shaft to get the lock washer and nut on.



"Long Springs" placed on wood lined bands, note how the ears are spread wide.

And photo below is that long band spring when compressed fully almost, as the Low pedal wood lining had gotten worn down to veneer thin, and cranking in on the adj. screw just about buckled that long spring. (time for re-lining!)



Any advantage of 'long springs', IMO, is offset by hard to fit, really tough to get the washers and nuts on, actually push the ears apart so the washer and nut ride high, and presents little threads holding, plus increased pedal pressure.

Best, IMO, is use correct length good quality new band springs.

Certainly old worn out, and flimsy band springs on Kevlar could be an issue, for use of Long Springs. But good new springs, of std. Ford spec. length, work just fine.


Mark's fitting of the Kevlar lined bands is good, and the look of the band around the drum seems good to me, appears to have good clearance in the as-set photo. A bit of running in and re-adjustment and should be fine.



Fitting process, showing std. length springs, the hogshead isn't all the way down and bolted, so the bands are slightly ajar while just securing the nuts prior to releasing the tie wire around the clamped band ears.


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