Finding neutral

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Finding neutral
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carey on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 09:20 am:

When driving my 23 touring with Kevlar bands I have trouble finding neutral when stopping at a lite. I seem to be either in low or high, can't seem to find a good spot in between. Neutral seems to work OK with the hand brake, but with the pedal it seems to be dragging one or the other.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 09:33 am:

I just use the handle, because I'm normally using the hand brakes to help the foot brake.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 09:36 am:

I had the same issue with my nuevo Kevlars for the first 100 miles. Much better after that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 10:17 am:

dfg

jki


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 10:35 am:

You're asking for possible trouble when using Kevlar.

I know factual information is not allowed on the forum but the whole system was designed to use cotton and it works perfectly...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 10:38 am:

Tom,

Kevlar should be fine, if used right.

If it's possible to do this and still have enough band engagement for low, loosen up your low band adjustment a bit. That should widen your neutral zone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dufault on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 10:47 am:

...factual information is not allowed on the forum...

I vehemently object to that statement.

It is downright WRONG - there is a great amount of true information published here. (Yes, I will admit that some information is erroneous, but to say that facts are not allowed is plain WRONG


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 10:49 am:

Sounds like your low pedal linkage is adjusted too short or the band is too tight.
Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 11:04 am:

Interesting...at the time the information on "Adjusting for Free Neutral" was published, was that information for kevlar bands? Or is it an assumption that the information presented is a one size fits all?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 11:20 am:

I suspect that the cam and notch are worn. When this occurs, you need to adjust the low band too tight to get your low band to compress completely with the pedal. This causes the low band to drag as you drive the car in high or reverse or even in neutral. If it has not already damaged the low drum, you are lucky.

This is the way to check for the problem. Notice how far you need to press the pedal before the shaft moves inward. If you move the pedal almost all the way to the floorboard before the shaft begins to move inward, your notch and cam are worn out. In that case, the best adjustment for low would be below the floorboard to get a free neutral. You will need to remove the hogs head to replace the parts. There is a pin which is peened at both ends which holds the notch to the shaft. That pin must be removed. The cam is fastened by a bolt through the hogs head.

When everything is right, the pedal will move forward about an inch before it begins to compress the band. That will be the neutral position. After you press it further it will compress the band until tight which is low position. It should be between 1" and 1 1/2 inch when fully compressed in low gear.

While everything is apart, be sure to turn the engine all the way around and check very carefully for cracks in the drum. See what to look for in my attached pictures. You will notice in the first picture the bluish color of the drum. That is caused by overheating. The crack was the result. In this case, the car came to a quick stop and couldn't even be pushed by hand. It was stuck right in the middle of the road. If you have a bluish color drum or a crack, replace the drum before it collapses like the one in the picture.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Bingham on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 11:23 am:

Big difference between the clutch linkage being properly adjusted to release the direct drive plates, and a low band dragging enough to cause low-gear creep. Any lining material can creep in low if the band is dragging.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 11:33 am:

I thought of one other possible cause of your problem. Usually this problem will happen with a new cam and notch. If the low shaft begins to move right immediately upon pressing the pedal, you will begin to compress the band before you reach the neutral. In some cases you can fix this by loosening the low adjustment. However if your band still drags in neutral, you might need to grind off a bit of the low notch on the back side, that is the flat side, not the tapered side. That will allow the low pedal to move back farther and give you a space where the band does not compress between high gear and neutral, about 1" pedal movement. If you do grind the notch, you will also need to re-adjust the link as shown in the diagram for free neutral posted by Roger.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 11:46 am:

Norman, thank you for that info. A friends car also has the "short window" when using the pedal for neutral, works great using the hand lever.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 12:06 pm:

Tom,

Rereading your initial question, you state that neutral is o.k. when you use the stick, but hard to find with the pedal. Here's your trouble, the linkage piece, circled below, must likely needs to be lengthened. Set the stick for neutral, then adjust the length of the link so that when you press down on the pedal it just begins to lift the clutch arm off the cam. In other words, you want the action of the pedal to move the clutch arm to exactly the same position that the cam/stick does.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 12:09 pm:

Normally, I would agree with folks regarding the neutral notch. However, what is being ignored in these responses is the fact that actuating the hand brake sets the neutral just fine. Even some respondents have mentioned this on their car.

Looking at the clutch lever, it is easy to see that the foot pedal is pushing (generally) in a downward motion relative to the clutch housing bushing. This is the direction and pattern of wear normal for usage. Using the hand brake pushes the clutch lever "up" against an unworn (correctly located) portion of the bushing. With this bushing worn thusly, there is a great amount of lost motion on the clutch lever when using the pedal, but greater or more normal motion when using the hand brake (clutch plates spread further apart for less drag). With everything slack, if there is up/down motion at the clutch lever, remove the hog's head, rebush this hole, and the problem will go away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 12:14 pm:

Great point Scott, I had never thought about that before! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 12:50 pm:

I've always had basically the same problem; the floor-lever works just fine at finding "neutral," but the left pedal doesn't do as good a job and at traffic lights and the bands whine. -Pulling back on the lever stops it. -Because everything else on the car works so well, I've been hesitant to adjust something that might upset the delicate equilibrium of everything else.



On the other hand, Jerry VanOoteghem's remedy seems simple enough to undo, should it not do the trick. -It's just a matter of keeping a record of how many counter-clockwise half-turns I give the clevis.-If it works, great. -If not, no harm done and it was worth a shot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 01:25 pm:

Sometimes the clevis is just too short, even when it is adjusted out as far as you dare to. The solution is to make a longer clevis:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/478111.html?1410348928


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 04:09 pm:

Be careful because this is what Kevlar can do to your drums..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chad Marchees _____Tax Capital, NY on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 05:52 pm:

Tim,

I believe it is your opinion of what kevlar bands do. There are to many people out there running them for this to be common and detrimental to a vehicle.

If you prefer some other type, that is fine. But there are many including myself that don't have issues with Kevlar. If you have "factual info", put it up and stop dancing around.

And until Norman says that damage was caused directly and undoubtedly by Kevlar bands, I believe it is wrong of you to assume this was the cause of all the damage. It could have just been easily been a pre fatigued/failed drum that was missed on the band installation (of whatever material it was).

Rant off, I have had a bad day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 08:37 pm:

It is a fact that the transmission drum engagement system was engineered and designed to use cotton bands and it works perfectly...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 08:48 pm:

POST HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC. After that, therefore because of that.. The rooster crowed and the sun rose. Therefore the rooster crowing caused the sun to rise. Kevlar linings were installed and a drum failed, therefore...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 10:12 pm:

First, in answer to a question by George J D, that article was originally published while the model T was still being produced by Ford. Nearly a half century before Kevlar was offered as a lining option. The information is still good, and there were wood and other hard lining options offered during the model T era.

Second. That silly little link between the pedal and clutch arm/shaft, causes a lot of aggravation. You would not expect it, but every little bit of wear on every shaft, pin, clevis, etc, makes that link need to be longer. They all add up, and most of those links are too short in most cars. There is a short (early style) clevis, and the "L" piece. Either one can be replaced with something about a quarter to half inch longer and adjusted to about an eighth to quarter inch longer than the original pair could easily reach. Which half (or both) I replace depends upon how worn out each piece is. The common (early style) clevis can be replaced with an even more common longer clevis, if the "L" piece is in good condition. However, the "L" piece is usually worn worse than the clevis. So I usually make a new "L" piece.

The fact is, there are many factors at play here. And exceptions abound.
However, MY OPINION is, that Kevlar bands will usually be okay, IF they are used properly. I like, and often use, cotton linings. My opinion has for about thirty years been that the big problem with Kevlar linings is that SOME model T drivers put them in thinking that their band problems are solved forever. Then they get lazy about feathering the pedal properly because they no longer have to worry about needing to change the bands. Years ago, I knew several people that started just stomping hard on the pedals because they had switched to Kevlar, and later shattered a drum (usually low drum). There are of course a dozen other variables, including old cracks, hidden flaws in the casting, warped bands, etc. But the transmission drums just cannot take that kind of abuse.
After the first several years of Kevlar bands, I don't hear of so many people breaking the drums. I suspect, most people got the message, and eased off the pedal stomping. But compromised drums are still out there.
So, if you want to, go with the Kevlar. Just drive it like you are using cotton. When beginning motion, throttle way down, feather the pedal to get the car moving a little, then press hard to prevent excessive band slipping on the drum. It takes a bit of practice, but it is easiest on the transmission.


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