New to me TT. Can't find neutral to ease starting.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: New to me TT. Can't find neutral to ease starting.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 09:19 pm:

it's the tt followed me home thread. got my cables from lang's and trying to start the engine. vaporizer carb which is new trinket to me. have rear axle on jackstands and trying to start engine and it is turning over very slowly and kills fully charged, new battery shortly

with starting fluid, it has popped and chugged occasionally, but no real fire. the rear wheels are turning and it seems to me it would help our motor turning over if I could get the whole worm drive train to stop. but loosening bands and playing with clutch has had no affect wheels just want to keep turning. and if I put the hand branke all the way on, the wheels stop turning, but I feel i'm still trying to turn the driveshaft

it does have a ruckstal, but I think it has no affect as it is downstream of the hogshead

i'm thinking of pulling the wheels to at least reduce the weight of the turning axles to help take some strain off the motor while i'm trying to wake it up after years of laying dormant
alleged rebuild, so a little stiff, but not extremely tight. 25 comp on each cy.

any thoughts to help me see if this engine will start?

thanks in advance


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 09:27 pm:

While it's jacked up, try low high and reverse. They should all work. If you use the foot brake or the parking brake the engine should not slow down or stall. There is always a small amount of drag on the clutch so the wheels will turn when off the ground. If you put the wheels on the ground, place chock blocks in front and in back of the wheels. The engine should start and run with the parking brake on or with the low pedal in neutral.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 09:34 pm:

It also sounds like you have either an ignition or carburation problem. There should be a drain plug at the bottom of the carburetor bowl. With the gas valve on and that valve open you should get a steady flow of fuel draining out. If not, you have a blockage in the fuel system between the tank and the vaporizer. You need a few gallons of gas in the tank for the gravety flow to allow enough gas. If you turn the ignition switch to batt the coils should buzz one at a time in the order 1,2,4,3 as you turn the crank. Two coils will buzz with each turn of the crank so it takes 2 complete turns for all 4 to buzz. There are more potential problems with the vaporizer than with the typical carburetors, and I have no experience with the vaporizer, so I will leave that to other forum members.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 10:03 pm:

well drop the tt down to the ground in the morning and try again with fully charged battery. carb was missing drain and when we put gas in tank, it poured our the bottom of the carb, so we know we have fuel flow to the carb. put drain plug in
we hear a popping piston type sound in the carb and will probably check diaphragm if we can run off starting fluid but not carb. starting fluid sprayed around manifold does not spark, so we think we have good manifold seal


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Friday, June 09, 2017 - 09:22 am:

trying to get this worm drive system straight in my mind. if the engine is turning the drive and the axle is elevated and the wheels are turning and I can't find a true neutral, how is dropping the axle on the ground and chocking the tires changing anything?

if I need to chock the tires, it is because the truck wants to go somewhere, so isn't the drive still engaged? how will this help reduce the load on the engine while trying to get a first start?

I thought jacking up the rear ends on t and tt was to reduce the load and ease the start which is why I did it.

what am I not understanding?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wilson, Saint John NB, Canada on Friday, June 09, 2017 - 11:51 am:

Take the vaporizer cover off and check to make sure that the heating plate is not burned through. If it is the car will not run. Been there, done that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, June 09, 2017 - 12:08 pm:

25 LBs compression, that is below a decent minimum. Could be why it only pops. I would consider maybe around 35LBS doable. Did you put any oil in the cylinders? If it's been sitting for a time, everything upstairs is going to be very dry which is going to make for a lot of drag. Did you pull the door open and check to see if the clutch collar is being pulled back to release the fingers when the low pedal is depressed or lever is pulled back? Even if it is, the disk could be stuck together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom 30 miles N of Memphis TN on Friday, June 09, 2017 - 01:19 pm:

Robert
Jacking the wheel eliminates the drag caused by congealed oil in between the clutch plate. You're doing right. Get it running with the wheel jacked and after a couple minutes you should be able to pull the lever all the way back and lower the wheel to the ground.

One possibility that is somewhat common on a well used T is the clutch plates have eaten through the lugs inside the brake drum making neutral impossible. If you have that, the transmission needs to come apart and replace the brake drum along with anything else you find wrong. If this T has been setting for years, this may be the reason it was put up.

Get it running with the wheel off the ground and try low, reverse, and neutral followed by the brakes. The deal with the transmission is it works or it doesn't. Wishing you best of luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Friday, June 09, 2017 - 06:28 pm:

we checked all the wriing and tdc on 1 and bent the timer rod. got it popping and was close a time or two with starting fluid, but no starting battery dies after a full charge with only a few minutes of off and on starting attempts. new battery with water
wheels still spinning while trying to start. will look at the clutch and bands per the above posts as I think reducing the load on the engine should help

I did put some mmo in the cylinders for a day or two prior to hand cranking over the engine it does seem tight to hand crank.
we'll remove the cover plate on the vaporizer and look, but we feel that starting fluid straight into the air intake would take the entire carb out of the equation, maybe not with the vaporizer

we've been as close as ever this evening. waiting for battery to charge and may try again tonight or wait until after car show tomorrow

war wagon will make the trip

thanks for holding my hand on this one


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Friday, June 09, 2017 - 07:41 pm:

Let those wheels turn! That oil in the high speed clutch pack may not let go until it's running and warmed up.
I'm still thinking Dave hit the nail on the head.
If you have fuel in the bowl and cannot get any upstairs, the heating/vaporizer plate is probably done for.
The primary air tube was also rotted away on mine when I got it along with everything downstairs plugged full of rust and crud.
No starting with ether either? The thing is sucking too much air so you have a too lean starting fluid mix? I don't know. Maybe?

If you tear into the carb, this should work for taking it apart.
Carefully loosen the brass gland nut 6271 on the short brass tube 6269 in the top section of the carb. This nut is threaded to the bottom section.
This union mates the 2 sections together thus completing the inlet air and fuel mixture path upstairs to the intake.
Carefully remove the four bolts that hold the lower section of the carb to the exhaust manifold. Perhaps whack them with a hammer if they're tight, stuck or rusted tight.
Wiggle the lower section of the carb off of the primary air tube.
This is the tube that goes into the float bowl top.
Now you can see in the exhaust manifold to check the heating/vaporizer plate and the primary air tube and also see if all the passages elsewhere are clear...
You guys are so close!
The primary air tube supplies air down to the bowl so the mix can come back up just in front of the vaporizer plate, it then goes thru that short brass tube.
Let me know if I am way off base!
Shoot. I'm just going to post this.


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