Large size can be created here-
Hard to tell what kind of garage elevator was involved, but it's a few years after the 1920 dating Shorpy writes.
The pressed profile running board brackets suggests after 1921 and the three dip oil pan says not newer than 1924. Body type may be Tudor Sedan, debuted 1923 as a 1924 model, so it may have been a '24 Tudor?
Everything I've seen indicates the pressed running board brackets were introduced in 1920.
That photo has the look of the T driver expecting the freight elevator to be there when the door opened. It wasn't. That could have ended very badly for the driver. I'm hoping that the T was being pushed onto the elevator.
Dave - Yes, there is some documentation the new running board brackets were actually introduced in July 1920 in USA - considering some left over forged brackets, the introduction would probably coincide with the 1921 model year in August.
(See July 19 in the link) http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc20.htm
(Message edited by Roger K on June 12, 2017)
My vote is '24-25. It doesn't have the "commercial" fenders but I think this is a 4-dip pan.
The coil springs and Fernicular Patent light fixture date the photo
to late 1923 at the earliest. The slide arm valve riser shims were
federally outlawed in November of 1924.
Burger, i'm not sure it was Spring. It looks more like a "Fall" picture.
Did you mean "Funicular"?
Burger - you have great expertise in whatever you're doing there
Tom - I think it's a three dipper considering the slope seen in the pan from the inspection plate towards the drain.
The slope in a three dipper pan can be seen here:
While a four dipper pan haven't got the same slope:
So it's likely a '24 since the four dipper pan was introduced about the time of the 1925 model year.
(July 18) http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc24.htm
I agree with you now.
I compared the two pans and a four dip has two screws (four total) between the 2-3 crank throw and I now see there's only one screw on each side.
Roger - Don't mind Burger,.....I think he's into that cheap stuff again,....the kind with bottles with the screw-on cap!
Looks like the crank is going thru the lower radiator apron, which would make it a mid 23 build at the earliest.
Would be interesting to know how this happened. The elevator platform is obviously up above, but it doesn't seem like this amount of damage could occur from a 4 foot drop. Must have come from the floor above.
I would guess the visor hit first and the wood body structure absorbed most of the shock.
If only the car had hit the springs...
Felix Fernicular got his first electrical patent in 1894 for the gum-dip
process emulsion backing based insulating cardstock that made him
famous. Ninety-some patents later, he got one for that particular light
Thanks Burger. I learn something new almost every day.
Burger - I think that early in his career, Felix must have been one of Thomas Edison's employees in his "patent mill", that is,....."before Felix "saw the light" so to speak, and then became a proponent of Tesla's more modern and successful AC theories. And by the way, I'm pretty sure that the "gum-dip" process of which you speak, eventually evolved into what is presently referred to as,...."the right stuff". FWIW,.....harold
Of coarse as we see here there are several flaws in the emulsion backing part of his process. Water friendly liquids like alcohol can never form an emulsion with water because of their ability to freely mix. Shearing power can be described as a liquid in motion; this can range from shaking, stirring, blending, etc. The more dispersed phase contained within an emulsion, the thicker the emulsion will become.
I'm sire Felix did well in his day but today many are skeptical of his theories.
Rich, that is awesome ! Do you have the patent drawing and papers for
Felix's Fragrant Mound Condensor ???
Somewhere I have a sketch of the eleven day reciprocating model. I will look for it. I don't have the dihydrogen monoxide version.
In Gargiot's Encyclopedia of Significant Advancements, I read that
by changing the eliptical flouron reduction to 4% or less, Fernicular
was able to almost double the 6-day reciprocation to a full 11, ....
actually 11.46. Since 1904, no improvement has ever been made !
I must confess I am not up on my flouron reduction.
We were preparing the Chadwick for the St. Swithin's Day parade when Dr. Hodgeswallter was giving his dissertation at the University. It's funny how sometimes the Hobby interferes with important things. As it turned out the parade was rained out.
Still, I am amused that 4% or less would result in that much effect.
I heartily concur.
Thanks Jerry. I thought you would.
As a side note, few people realize that Sylvia Hodgeswallter ,the Dr.'s second wife, was the stunt-woman for Aunt Bee on the Mayberry Show.
Was that the episode where Goober shoved Aunt Bee off a cliff?
Or this one:
Good grief! I had not seen that one. The resources of this Forum never cease to amaze me.
This is the episode that I remember.
I can't believe the hogwash you'll read here. I have it good authority that Aunt Bee (Frances Bavier) did ALL of her own stunts.
I absolutely love that!
Tom, it was certainly her intent and part of the contract to do her own stunts until the Fenwinkler episode when her anklet got caught in the secondary chain jumping the school buses Caesar's Motor Court.
After that all conceded that a more nimble stand in would be advised. At least that is what the Hodgeswallters are claiming.
Look it up.
Tom, your good authority needs to check his facts. This clip of the tussle with Tonto proves it was Miss Hodgeswallter in that scene. She doesn't have the mole under her right jaw, that Frances Bavier does.
Bingham - ever heard of makeup?
Eagle - if I had a nickel for every time I've heard that story.
Faulty reasoning, Tom. Makeup - to conceal a mole or paint one on ? Frances was violently allergic to makeup. Everyone knows that.
Tom, I actually do have a nickel for every time I've heard that story.
Interesting that Tom brings up hogwash. Another of Felix Fernicular's patents
was for the first highly successful hogwash. Made of all organic materials, but
with a base of diethylene-9, it revolutionized the hog washing industry.
And in a strange twist to this thread, the hogwash was collected and used to
create make up for both creating and covering up moles.
I can't believe that I just read this entire thread....maybe I need to lay off the cheap stuff.
I'm glad you brought that up, Burger. Pertinent to the foregoing discussion, it was the organic content largely derived from hog-wallers that was residual in the makeup, which Frances Bavier was allergic to. Luckily, the moles were not allergic, and continued digging holes in Fernicular's crocus garden.
We are here to help. Ask any question and we will get you some answers.
Even if we have to make them up ! It's what we do.
Also is hogwash, Burger's dating of the photo.
A.() Fernicular lights could have been made while the patent was pending.
B.() In regard to "The slide arm valve riser shims were federally outlawed in November of 1924."
My Uncle had a sawmill in Tensed, ID. and if my youthful recollection is correct, he was using slide arm valve riser shims well into the 1960's.
Just because something is outlawed doesn't make them disappear over night.
Well I'm glad we cleared that up. I will sleep much better tonight. It worries me that Tensed, ID in Benewah County had 126 residents in the 2000 census and 123 in the 2010 census. Is there some kind of trouble down at the old mill?
With an outlaw like Tom's Uncle running the sawmill, of course people are clearing out !
Remember boys and girls, Let's not lose focus on some grim facts:
When slide arm valve riser shims are outlawed, only outlaws will have
slide arm valve riser shims.
Burger, I hope Felix's Hogwash patent using a base of diethylene-9 took into consideration the Shufflebottom effect. I read somewhere that the greater anionic strength of hemisulfate residues such as those in carrageenan might alter protein conformation and activity unfavourably in comparison with the lesser influence of alginate carboxylates. I would hate to think washing a hog might inhibit denaturing electrophoresis and their enzymatic activity.
Just a passing though.
Richard, those same thoughts keep me awake at night pondering.
Rich, big trouble at the mill in Tensed. There ain't no trees there !! Locals say the sawmill never ran, it was a cover for an illegal slide arm valve shim operation. Tom's uncle was hauled off in chains by the FBI in 1972, but was never convicted.
The more I learn, the more confused I get !
Rich's last point seems valid, but I have yet to have the time to really
sit down and ponder Fernicular's hogwash patent or theories. Just
read about it in a 1912 Ladies Home Journal.
As for Tom's Uncle, like the 1970's incident with the FBI, Uncle Alice
is still in chains, memorialized by the Seattle band by the same name.
The problem with slide arm valve risers is, as I see it, too much shimming and not enough sliding. Call me old fashioned but error on the side of safety.
Truly, I have nothing against Tom's Uncle but you know how he is.
Burger, you're wise not to spend too much time studying this particular detail of Fernicular's hogwash patent. Rich E. definitely knows his stuff when it comes to the Shufflebottom Effect, I expect he will keep us up to speed with any significant finds in that field. Truth of the matter is that in spite of the refinement of Fernicular's Hogwash recipe,through the past 60 years or more, most serious hogwashers have relied on the simpler method of washing hogs with Orvus Paste and a garden hose. Results are very near equal, and it's more cost effective. This works well on Western ranges where livestock generally suffers from a Selenium deficiency, I wouldn't dare suggest it would equal the performance of Fernicular's patent for hogwashers east of the Mississippi.
Rich isn't that like saying 90% of all carburetor problems are electrical? However we hate to admit it it is almost always true.
By the way, isn't Selenium 5000 years?
Am I right in thinking the invected polarity of selenium is reversed
(or substantially altered) along a longitudinal line somewhere close
to the Mississippi to create that difference in effectiveness ? I seem
to recall even Henry Ford mentioned this as a factor in his decision
making for the company during its first 15 years (or so) of development.
Anyone familiar with the deeper details of early FOMOCO history will
note the ruling out of any use of slide arm valve risers (or related shims)
and the obvious absence of any mention of Tom's Uncle Alice in Tensed.
Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed the total absence of mention
of the large nougat mines developed by Uncle Alice's brother Zebulon
Feckler ? To this day, they remain the world's largest supplier of natural
nougat to the confectionary industry and Fecklersburg is ranked 9th in
State for pretty girls with freckles.
I knew a girl once that had freckles on her but, but she was nice. Come to think of it she was from frecklersburg. She liked Burgers and nougat and she drove a ford. I remember now Alice was her uncle. There was no slide arm or shimming with her. Her dad Betty was much like Alice, a real outlaw. Betty raised hogs and was an exporter that delt in imports. Oh yes its all coming back now.
Isn't it a small world Dallas? I once had a Hog named Betty. We sometimes called her Bob as a joke. No freckles but she could slide and shimmy.
It is a small world. I had a two legged hog named Ilene!!!
Rich, that rule regarding carburetors and electrical problems is actually the third corollary of Murphy's Law, and it always proves out true, except for when it doesn't. I believe the Selenium isotope has a quarter-life of 5000 years, hence the name.
Burger, I believe you are correct about the reversed invected polarity of Selenium that occurs somewhere along a longitudinal line near the Mississippi River, although some researchers have claimed that the magnetic radius causing it actually occurs a bit further West, and runs through the middle of Steve Jelf's back yard. I could be way off base, but it's likely it was that electro-magnetic activity which shrunk his tires, thereby causing the difficulties he encountered in getting them mounted.
Freckles on pretty girls as well as on hog butts may also be caused by yet another magnetic anomaly, explaining why both have been commonly found in the vicinity of Frecklersburg.
My hat is off to Murphy. I don't know how he does it. The 90% rule became most apparent when I switched from my 6 volt Rayfield to a 12 volt Stromberg. I am now using a dual fret confabulator. I have taken some flak from forum members for using E-Carbs.
Dallas, was Ilene born that way or was it an accident or perhaps two separate ones? Regardless, give her my regards.
(Message edited by rich eagle on June 15, 2017)
Richard Ilene was a great pig. She helped pull my tractor out of the waller. Back then she was a three legged pig. She would chase the fox away from the hens every time. Thats why she was two legged. You hate to eat a good hog all at once! Is that E-carb made of unobtainium? I had one similar that was made out of leaverite. A guy tried to talk me out of it but I said it needed rewired and to leave er right there on the shelf. I believe it was a single fret. Yours is much more desirable model. The duel fret confobulator vaporises much better.
I once had a pig that kept running out of the pen. We named it Ink.
It all makes perfect sense to me! Thank you. I needed that.
I'm surprised that Seth's Parakeet hasn't wound up here somehow. In fact, I haven't seen Seth post on this thread. Richard, did you do something to his Parakeet that ticked him off? Sorry, I couldn't resist. Dave
"Ink" I love it.
Actually I haven't talked to Dennis Seth lately. He must have picked up his parakeet while I was at choir practice as I haven't seen the little fellow for nearly a month.
Wasn't "Leaverite" some sort of alunimum alloy?
Here is a quick photo of the 6V Rayfield. I hope to get it rehabulated as soon as possible.
Hmmm. Parakeet AWOL for a month . . . Rich, what's that blue feather on the 6v Rayfield ? You don't suppose . . . ?
I just clicked on Dennis Seth's profile on his May 26 post "Please Remember". It says his profile has been deleted. Anyone know what happened? I really enjoyed his posts and humor. Dave
I think Dennis is taking a break. Sometimes our OT and/or humor is more than some feel appropriate. I have enjoyed Dennis's humor, his reverence to military service and religious holidays. He helped me with Coupe details and photos when I was struggling with my project. Although I have severe allergies to animals I have never refused to care for his parakeet when he is off on one of his archaeological explorations. Hopefully he will realize there are many who enjoy his participation and come back to the circus here.
I would caution forum members to be kind to each other. We come together with a common interest but our different interpretations of that interest can lead to insults, hurt feeling and losing some of what we came here for. I prefer the humor to the name calling and criticism but what do I know.
Somewhat respectfully submitted.
Well said Rich. Thank you.
There are quite a few other model T websites on the internet. Some on facebook, Yahoo groups, Hemmings. I don't know how many local clubs and independent sites are devoted mostly to model Ts, but it must be way over a hundred. Maybe more than two hundred.
I personally avoid facebook. And the few times I have tried to view them in the past year, I couldn't get past my limited DSL or some silly limiting thing.
There have been a few independent sites that I have followed for a time. A few of them I liked, and tried to support (including a British Isles model T site).
Most of those that fail, and disappear, do so because there is not enough activity. One person tries to run the site, a half dozen respond occasionally to questions. One or two postings a week for a few months, and the one person running it loses interested.
For model Ts, on the world-wide-web, from what I have heard, and seen, this is far and away the most active and best site in the world!
I know there are some that wish we wouldn't participate in all the "OT" stuff. More than a few have complained about thread drift. And sadly, too many good people have folded their tents and left.
Still, I personally think that a lot of that "OT" and joking is a big part of why this site is so active. It is one of many reasons why we have dozens of good knowledgeable people checking in here every day (sometimes several times a day), and therefore why questions get answered here that appear to be ignored on other sites.
Well, I gotta go. Got sick family to care for.
But first, I am going to check if there is any update on Erik Barrett and the Wild Cherry.
Part of the reason why I come here (besides the mass of tech info) is the OT topics and posts.
I've had many days that I don't feel good and yet this forum can always get real belly laughs out of me and Dennis is part of the reason.
You guys make me feel good even when I don't! That is a wonderful and rare thing.
Light hearts are happier hearts.
I've been doing old cars now since 1974. See a LOT of different car groups and
clubs. It has been my experience that no car club ever thrives or survives when it
is a sterile, car-talk-only group. The ones that DO thrive allow people to bring all
their other life stuff into the mix. Makes it a more "human" experience.
Yep, this is the best site I know of, bar none! Both for on topic and off topic postings.
This particular thread was VERY clever!
Yes it did get turned upside-down! Oh wait that was in the title.
The tech info is what I came for but found much more.the photos and thread drift,like Burger says makes it human. I have met some great people and look forward to many more. The little fords brings it all together.
If you've made it this far, then you should take a moment to review the Turbo Encabulator training.
You will be glad you did because it will enlighten you on the concept of magneto reluctance. (No, that is not when you're mag stops working.)
That's what I'm talkin' about.
Its on the inerweb, it has to be true! That must be what Henry sounded like to people 110 years ago?
Isn't thread drift caused by a selenium deficiency in left legged, butt freckled hogs south of the mason dixon line (as is Frecklesberg if I'm not mistaken) who are co-housed with majestic blue parakeets and weaned prematurely on invected polarity selenium enriched with nougat? (isn't that one of the modifying ingredients in modified bituminus roofing tar?) Some of the science that goes into hog farming results in lessons we can all be thankful for......I know Aunt Bea was.....
As for this forum, I honestly enjoy the welllllll rounded content that contains both the useful kind of information as well as the merely entertaining variety. Thanks everyone.
P.S. here is an expanded version that contains valuable servicing guidance..........
Contains a ford data point at the end......
Erich, all I know is I certainly learned my lesson regarding hog farming . . . that's why we have sheep ! As for thread drift, it's the reason I keep reading here daily - it's where the fun of "visiting" with model T guys happens, and as with any group of friends, there's always something to be learned. I'm grateful for members who can tolerate silliness even if they don't "enjoy" it, I sure have fun with the humor here.
Here is a picture of the ubiquitous "Thread Drift" and a discussion explaining it's use by a very knowledgeable group.
"I love you, You love me. . . ."
OK, ear-worm time!
"It's a small world after all, It's a small world after all. . . ..
Bwa ha hah ha!
Rich, you are lucky to have that original Ford numbered tool. I don't think reproductions are available any longer. When they were offered about 40 years ago, they were built by Kamikaze Tool in Kyoto, but the company crashed in a dot com sometime in the 90s. Bringing this up recalls the sad memory of a friend of mine with a hearing loss. In conversation with a fellow T enthusiast "thread drift" was mentioned, and he thought he heard "great rift". Ultimately he was lost in the lava flow caves west of Aberdeen, Idaho. I miss him, he was one of the few people I could tap for fresh ideas.
That car has been there for 8 days now, it's time to get it out so we can use the elevator.
Has it only been 8 days. It seems much longer.
Kamikaze bought out Selbstmord just after the war. They were using tungsten rather than molybdenum during the second phase pilgivation spectrode chilling. Of coarse this made it too brittle but at that point I don't think they really cared. If only they had thought to use some slide arm valve risers. With or without shims they might have avoided needless selenium.
"Waste not want not" as Dr. H used to say.
Well, in actuality it has been much longer. Since nothing will ever change in the photograph, it's been well over 90 years !
Rich, I was unaware Kamikaze was using tungsten. This would account for the minor chipping that shows on my reproduction thread drift, and I only had occasion to use it once, very lightly. It seems the tungsten/molybdenum switch was owing to the language barrier. Translating to Japanese, the second phase spectrode chilling was misunderstood to be PIG-livation which resulted in a parallel process involving freckle-butt hogs. The extra selenium thus became a necessary dietary supplement for the pigs. Dr. H was also often wont to say, "Oh crap !"
I know a secret about Uncle Tom's cabin... Who threw the bodies in the wishing well...
Always a day late and a dollar short, I am.
Oh wait. Somebody got that... Right? I'm NOT that young/old... Right?
How many 3¢ stamps in a dozen ?
12, unless it's a baker's dozen, then 13!!
Do the Brits have a 4th of July??
Of course they do, right after the 3rd of July--it's just not a celebration for them.
Why do Kamikaze pilots wear helmets?
Grandpa always said "trelve" in a dozen.
Also a "Cartoon" of eggs.
As for the 3¢ stamp it's been so long I can't remember how many.
Oh well, time to feed Dennis's parakeet.
Is Nov. 5 still Guy Fawkes Day in Grey Bull Wyoming even though we never heard of him ?
How many penny postcards do you get for a dollar-six-eighty ?
If you think these lines are lame, take it up with Joe King . . . he writes my stuff.
I hadn't heard from "Guido" lately or Joe for that matter.
"November 3, 2014
To celebrate Guy Fawkes Day Wednesday, Nov. 5, the movie, “V is for Vendetta,” will be shown at 8 p.m. in the lower level of the University of Wyoming Union"
I don't know if it will be shown this year.
OK, so you are floating down any river in your wire canoe, and the wheel falls off.
How long would it take a one-legged grasshopper to kick the seeds out of a dill pickle ?
Burger! Everyone knows the answer to that. Its purple, because aliens dont wear hats!