Tire and rim fitment

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Tire and rim fitment
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Curtis on Friday, June 16, 2017 - 10:15 pm:

I purchased a 1918 with 3 inch wide rims and 30 x 3 1/2 tires and want to purchase 1 new spare rim 1 tire and 2 tubes is the fitment as mentioned above ok? another question I have is the right rear rim slipped on the spoke wheel with the 4 bolts tight what should I do to prevent this from happening again?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, June 16, 2017 - 10:49 pm:

First you don't say what happened? Are you saying even with the 4 bolts tight the rim turned on the wheel? Next please post photos of which rims you have and wheels you have. Not all rims fit all wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Curtis on Friday, June 16, 2017 - 11:05 pm:

upon applying brake bolts tight the rim turned on the wheel. almost tore valve stem off.
Answer YES

I will take pictures Saturday 6/17/17 showing measurements.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 10:47 am:

Donald

the rim cannot turn on the wheel. Are you saying that the TIRE slipped on the RIM?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 10:58 am:

The rim could turn if he is using the rims without the attached lugs. But if it was the tire turning on the rim, you need to keep the tire pressure between 55 and 60 LBS. When the tire pressure get under 50 LBS you run the risk of the tire spinning on the rim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 11:22 am:

Thanks Mark. Was not considering Kelsey's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 11:40 am:

Actually, if I remember correctly and without looking in my wheel/rim rack, Kelsey rims have a locating lug which corresponds with one rim bolt which does just that - keeps the rim from rotating on the wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 11:42 am:

If you use the no lugs attached rim on the wrong wheel, there is no locking feature on the wheel to keep the rim from turning, as there is on the correct wheel. With the rims with attached lugs, the rim cannot turn, but the wrong rims will not fit correctly either, and not be supported safely. I think there's about 3 different common combinations of wheels and rims on the T, not counting aftermarket ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Curtis on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 12:02 pm:

I am having a problem getting pictures to this forum.
The rim slipped about an inch where it attaches to the metal which attaches to the wooden spokes.
There are four bolts thru the metal that attaches to the spokes with four metal pieces attached to the four nuts.
The four bolts and nuts with attached clamps supposedly should keep it from slipping.
the bolts was as tight as I dare make them when I replaced the inner tube recently.
is there a torque specification I am afraid to tighten to much and stripping threads I understand getting replacement nuts with the metal clip attached is all but impossible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Curtis on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 12:23 pm:

My rims are 3 inches wide and the tires are size 30x3-1/2 is that fitment acceptable


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 12:52 pm:

2 7/8 to 3 inches sounds correct but what does that have to do with the rim moving on the fellow(sp)? I don't know that Ford ever used the clips with nuts attached on cars, trucks maybe.
You might have the wrong lug clips. What brand wheels do you have? Google "mtfca.com rim(s)", there has been lots of info published on the forum in the past showing what wheels are which.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 01:09 pm:

You're probably having a problem posting pictures because they're over the 250 KB limit for file size. Here's what to do: 1 Make a copy if the picture you want to post and keep the original in case you want it later. 2 Google "free resize" and use one of the resizing websites to shrink your copy's file size to 250 KB or less. You want it as close to 250 LB as you can get it without going over.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 01:12 pm:

250 LB

That's a pretty heavy picture!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 01:14 pm:

This might help you out, I keep one in my garage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 03:36 pm:

Donald,

Do you prefer Donald or Don or something else? The form for creating our profile says something like
"full name" but I like to put what I'm called (or at least what I am called by my friends when they are not really mad at me.)

Summary:

The problem you shared can easily happen if you have the Ford 2845C or 2845D loose lug rims fitted to the a felloe (the metal part the rim bolts to) that is designed for the Kelsey 2845 loose lug rim or the felloe designed for the Hayes 2845B fixed lug rim or the Ford 2845B fixed lug rim.

For additional details and recommended fixes please see the details below:

Background:

Ford did not offer demountable rims on 1918 cars so your car would not have come from the factory with those wheels. Not to worry – if it is a cold and rainy night – it is much nicer to have demountable rims if you have a flat than to have the original non-demountable rims where you had to dismount the tire, patch or replace the tube, and then remount the tire.

“IF” your felloes and rims are one of the 5 major styles originally supplied by Ford or even replacement rims designed to fit the Ford felloes then the following will be helpful. Caution any 30 x 3 ½ clincher demountable rim will go over just about any felloe that was originally designed for a 30 x 3 ½ inch clincher demountable rims. Why – because the diameter of the felloes and rims are the same or really close to the same in most cases. So “IF” you have a rim or felloe that was originally supplied on another make of car – then it could get more complicated. Good news – Ford supplied more demountable rims and associated felloes than any of the other makes.

The loose lug wheels supplied with new Fords were of three basic styles. There were some variations on them but in general the following is representative of them:

It sounds like you probably have a 2845C or 2845D loose lug rim mounted on a Kelsey or Hayes style felloe.



Thank you to Steve Shelton for the photos above and below! In the photo above it shows that both the 2845D and 2845D styles have a lug around the valve stem. That lug is designed to fit into a receptacle in the appropriate felloe and keeps the rim from moving on the felloe. One of those felloes is shown below:



Note I suspect but I do NOT know for a fact, that the felloe above is for the 2845C or D rim. I do know that either rim will fit it nicely. And that they function well on that felloe. And all you have to change is to change out the lug to fit the rim style you have. Note the Jan 1927 Service bulletin shows the same front wheel less rim as well as the same rear wheel less rim is used for the 2845C and 2845D rims. And if a customer ordered the complete wheel with the lugs and rims they are listed as 2800-C1 for the front wheel with the 2845C rim and 2800-C2 for the front wheel with the 2845D rim.

I suspect you have a felloe that does NOT have a receptacle around the valve stem hole as shown below:



The one pictured above is a typical Hayes style felloe but the Kelsey also has that same style valve stem hole in the felloe. It does NOT have a receptacle for the lug on the 2845C or 2845D rim to fit into. So those style rims can turn on the felloe.

Below is a typical Kelsey loose lug felloe - notice the raised slots for the loose lugs to fit against:



(Thank you Ron Grigsby for posting that photo).

The less costly recommendation is to sort out the wheels and rims so you can have a single spare rim that will fit any of your four wheels.

How to do that:
If you post photos of all four wheels that you have showing the following on each wheel (or stating they are all the same as the first one if that is the case):
1. Valve stem area of the felloe. Those that had the receptacle usually have a ring around the valve stem that can be seen without taking off the rim.
2. Show what type of lugs are being used (Loose or fixed)
3. Clearly show if the felloe has a slit / raised portion for a loose lug to fit against – i.e. the lug bolt area. (A raised slit would be a Kelsey felloe for the Kelsey loose lug rim – caution Kelsey also made felloes in late 1924-26 in 30 x 3 ½ that did NOT have those slits/raised portion – so just having the name doesn’t answer the question)
4. That shows the profile of the rim where the lug fits up against. Is it rounded 2845C style or a flat edge2845D style – see the photo above.
5. The relationship of the valve stem hole to the lug bolt hole. (Chevy rims had a different location).

Note – you can use the loose lug 2845C or 2845D rim on a front wheel that is NOT designed for it and it will probably work ok. Why? Because the front wheels don’t experience the force of the engine torque or the force of the braking.

I’m sure this can be sorted out easily once you know what you have. Even if you have 4 different style wheels on your car you probably will only need to change out a couple of them or perhaps none of them – just obtain rims that work with them.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 05:45 pm:

See also the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/313621.html?1348491514

respectfully added,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, June 17, 2017 - 10:33 pm:

Hap

Good review, like your details.

For Donald

These pictures may help.

If you have a miss-match of Kelsey rim and fellow type with the detachable lugs, then the rim could revolve on the fellow as you are describing.







The mating rim will have a "clip" or half a lug that is open on the top near the hole for the tube valve stem hole. If the clip isn't there, and the bolt running through the clip, the rim can revolve on the felloe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, June 20, 2017 - 09:11 pm:

Dan,

Thank you for the kind words. And thank you for all your support to our forum, hobby, and club(s).

I'm hoping to get an article together about the rims and felloes. It is making a lot more sense to me than it did when I first starting trying to figure it out.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 12:08 am:

Hap, figure 14 in the post above shows Kelsey lugs which have the nut captured in the loose lug. That is not the way our Canadian sourced cars came. We had a separate nut with a flat integral 'washer' and a separate U shaped lug of different length legs.
This is for your information when putting together your writings.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 12:11 am:

Hap, make that figure 44
Sorry, Allan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 04:59 am:

Allan, I have and have seen many of them in both styles here. Kelsey also made two different styles of rims as Hap shows, maybe one type of lug was made for one type of rim, or not? I just figured that one type was earlier than the other and were made to keep production costs down? They are all interchangeable. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 09:40 am:

Sounds like he has Firestone rims on some other type of wheel. Firestone has a stem around the valve stem that fits into a cup on the wheel fellow to keep it from turning. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 11:15 am:

Dave Stroud, "They are all interchangeable"?? Please clarify that statement as all rims are NOT interchangeable, even though they may fit over the felloe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 12:28 pm:

"I am having a problem getting pictures to this forum."

Pictures sure would help.

Be aware that the file size limit is 250K per picture on this forum. If the file sizes are too big, you can resize them using Paint or another picture editing program of your choice.

If you are trying to upload pictures from a cell phone, try emailing them to yourself, then loading them from your computer. Sometimes the act of emailing them will reduce their size without you having to do it manually.

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 12:46 pm:

Sorry David D., I meant that all KELSEY rims and lugs are interchangeable, as I said. You are of course correct that ALL rims are not interchangeable. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 07:35 pm:

David S. Ah, yes, thanks for the clarification!
I could see this going a wrong direction. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 09:10 pm:

I believe we will need a little more information from Donal Curtis before we will know for sure what he has or does not have. As I mentioned above, the rim moving on the felloe (not tire but rim) can easily occur when the 2845C or 2845D rim is placed on a felloe that does not have the receptical for the valve stem lug to fit into.

Allan - you may be correct that the Kelsey style loose lug with the captive nut may not have been used by Canada and/or may not have been sent on cars to Australia. I think I see those on a factory photo that is reprinted in the Sep-Oct 1967 Antique Automobile article by Herman L. Smith (RIP). But I would really like to go from "think I see" to knowing I do or do not see. Also to know if it was regular production or a prototype car. [For example the photos taken in late 1914 that show a USA Centerdoor sedan with gas headlamps and curved front fenders. It was a real car but a prototype, and not the production model.]

Note below is an illustration showing the typical Kelsey lug and flat faced nut. It is taken from a drawing that was last updated 8-13-23 but also has a 23 struck through and a 24 written on the drawing. And that flat nut and lug will replace the captive nut and lug (or it as listed as doing so).



Notice that the removable Kelsey lug has factory number T-8831B (that is NOT the part number but the factory number of the part) that implies there was enough change from the T-8831 to add a letter to signify they are different.

But notice the flat faced Kelsey lug nut to hold the lug against the wheel is factory number T-8834A. Normally they would not have an A without a B but they do not list an 8834B number. Why? I'm not sure. My guess is that the nut was new and it didn't replace another nut. Instead I suspect it along with the clamp 8831B were used together to replace the lug with the embedded nut that was used in early USA production. Ref: page 282 of Bruce McCalley's "Model T Ford" that shows the Kelsey with the captive lug and the Kelsey lug that did not have a captive nut.

Thank you David Stroud for posting some great photos of lots of lugs including those early Kelsey lugs with the captive nuts at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/135793.html?1272338147

Sorry the posting is a little scattered. I need to just get everything from the old computer onto the new one. But I'm not there yet.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 12:02 am:

Hap, my practical experience differs from the drawing in your last post. The outside edge of the raised lip around the inside of the rim is usually in line with the outside edge of the felloe. The drawing shows the loose lug almost touching the felloe, when it usually stands off some.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 07:37 pm:

Allan, all of the Kelsey wheels and rims that I have seen fit just as Hap's drawing shows. IMHO, both of the legs on the lugs should draw up tight, or else there would be side stress on the bolt instead of it pulling straight. JMHO Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 09:12 pm:

I have a set of freshly rebuilt Kelsey rim wheels and Kelsey 88 rims in the basement and the lugs pull up tight on both legs.

pic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 09:54 pm:

Mark, Great pic showing that. I do notice, however, that the rim against the wall looks like the edge is a bit jagged. I'd hate for that to cut your tire. The spare rim edge also looks like it might need some smoothing out.
But then I could be all wrong!!
Donald, is any of this helping solve your rotating rim mystery?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 10:02 pm:

I have two more nearly perfect rims at the powder coaters right now. They will replace the two worst of the batch you see in the picture. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 10:30 pm:

David, you are correct in saying both ends of the U shaped piece must engage on the rim and felloe at the same time. My point is the drawing shows this with the rim way to far onto the felloe. It is the representative drawing that is in error.

If the rim ledge is lined up with the outside of the felloe and the drawing of the U shaped piece altered to show both ends still in contact, then the drawing will more accurately represent actuality.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, June 23, 2017 - 12:29 am:

Mark, good to hear. I LOVE the ribbon grain on those two spokes. Is the rest of the car as jazzy as the wheels?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, June 23, 2017 - 12:49 am:

Donald Curtis;
Is this helping you figure out what is going on with your wheel(s)?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, June 23, 2017 - 09:10 am:

The wheels will go on Betsy some day when her current Hayes wheels become unserviceable:

pic1

pic2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, June 23, 2017 - 12:48 pm:

Well, that's spiffy--if you're out camping and someone is sleeping in the 'bed', you just tip it up, and out they slide, "Rise & Shine!"
:-)
I have the unrestored version (and a Perry wooden bed to go on him)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Friday, June 23, 2017 - 06:13 pm:

Mark

Donald hasn't logged on since June 17 according to his profile. Lots of useful info not reaching it's target.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Saturday, June 24, 2017 - 02:09 pm:

Bump to get rid of the spam


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