6 volt battery sizes. I learned something today plus questions.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: 6 volt battery sizes. I learned something today plus questions.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Friday, June 16, 2017 - 11:00 pm:

I'm biting the bullet and installing a 6 volt battery and holder in the psychedelic '18 Tin Cup so it's easier to start.
I really feel I shouldn't but someone in the past DRILLED the holes in the frame for the battery holder and a holder came with.
The '23 engine in it has somethin' I just ain't familiar with. A starter. And a generator that I probably wrecked already. Ooh, I need a FP cutout too!
I ain't ready to crank that little devil yet this year. Had a piece of window screen installed under the skin in my belly in May. Owwwee!!!

I gave 'Ol Crappy-Lizzhe a foot kick (more of a push) last night and that might work A-OK 'til I can crank it.
That wore out old (almost) compression-less engine just needs 3 pulls to get him going. Same as the derelict vaporizer equipped '25 TT Lucky.
Cripes Duane, your 9 year old Granddaughter can crank that fool thing...
Anyhoo...

So I order a 6 volt battery from the parts store along with a 6 volt solenoid yesterday.
Ya, I'm gonna go that route, this solenoid requires a hot to actuate it instead of a ground. The book showed the diagram and I was rubber-necking. :-)

I pick these bits up today and later find the battery's too big for the battery holder. Ugh.

After a bit of study, I NOW see there's a group 1 (9-1/8 X 7-1/8 X 9-3/8) AND a group 2 (10-3/8 X 7-1/8 X 9-3/8). NOTE how OLD the group numbers are...
Dopey me, I didn't research this at all before as I thought a 6 volt was a 6 volt... Jordy Verrill, you nulnkhead! All 6'ers are not the same.
Lesson learned.

With no core, at this price I could've bought an Optima.
Will an Optima Red fit in the battery holder and how are you folks holding it in place?
Note: I do NOT have a battery box for my battery, only the holder. Is this even doable? Too darned cheap to buy a box... The cover is another story here.

Another twist: Someone welded a nice formed 7-1/8 X 9-1/4 tray in the battery holder sometime in the past and it was likely bought this way for this '18.
There's also a piece of foam-like material in the tray. Been there for 30 years or so.
They thought it was a newer car. What a puzzle.

Clamps: I detest the notion of drilling more holes in that frame yet I'll need to fasten the solenoid. Notions? What did you do?
I think of clamps for air and water lines in steel buildings that'll clamp to a steel column/beam and I swear I saw a pic on this forum where
in the background is a clamp or two like this on a T for holding something. Did I save it or ask? No.

My endless babbling never makes much sense...
Thoughts, notions or?
Thanks much!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cliff Colee on Friday, June 16, 2017 - 11:14 pm:

My car had a battery holder but no battery box. I wanted to install an Optima battery but it would slip out of the holder. So I built a battery box out of scrap plywood. I built the box a bit larger than the battery, and used hard foam to pad and hold the battery from rattling around. It works great. I did paint the wood box black....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, June 16, 2017 - 11:26 pm:

Duane,
I think you can mount the solenoid with one of the starter switch mounting bolts. the only "pull" on it is the battery connections. Group 2 fits a Ch**Y, so your really don't want it in your T!! :-)
The tray should help hold whatever wood box you make to hold the battery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 01:26 am:

Cliff, I like the thought of a plywood box. Thank you. That'd be easy to do.
The battery would need to sit at an angle in the box, on the tray in the holder. The dims should be 3-5/8 X 10-1/16 X 8-1/8 according to Optima.
I'll map that out. :-)

David, hmmm, I COULD save that group 2 battery for my '28 inline Twin-Four Chevrolet engined project. :-)
That Chevy Twin-Four project has been pushed back a few more years again tho.
"Sheesh, that schmuck doesn't hesitate using dirty words here, does he?" ;-)
There is one hole in the lower frame lip just to the front of the control shaft for possible mounting of the solenoid.
An old gas lighting hose clamp hole perhaps? My memory is awful fuzzy there.
I'll see how the old repro cables fit once I get a battery. Hate to make new cables IF I have some that'll work.
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vieux Carre on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 06:28 am:

Duey,
I bought a modern 6v battery an then just made the tray to fit since mine was already rotted out. The battery cover will get some rubber insulator because I think the posts are too high to be safe. One of the clamps had to be formed and the wood board and rubber mat (cut from a roll) were calculated in the height.
Vern

Battery bracket 1
Battery bracket 2
Battery bracket 3
Battery bracket 4
Battery bracket 5
Battery bracket 6
Battery bracket 7
Battery bracket 8


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 09:36 am:

Model T's have no solenoids, so you don't have to worry about that. You are listening to the wrong people.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 09:58 am:

My 1948 Ford F2 takes a group 2 battery and has a solenoid. :-)And! It's a flat head 6 to boot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 01:45 pm:

I agree with Larry. You are adding problems and paying for them too. T foot switch is far easier and works fine. The correct size group 1 battery is plentiful if you live anywhere near a farm tractor supply store since The Ford "N" series of tractors used them and there are many of them still in service hence the suppliers still make batteries for them. They are the most common battery purchased by T owners and I have them in my T's. Local Blain's Farm and Fleet has them at very reasonable cost that is a small fraction of an OPTIMA cost and the Optima is just an expensive battery that really isn't any better than a new Group 1 battery from Blain's IMHO. OPTIMA battery is a sealed battery designed for applications where the battery needs to be mounted in any position including upside down. Since the T never has any need for that - why pay the money.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 04:08 pm:

While we are on the subject, is a '26 Touring supposed to have a battery box? Mine didn't have one when I bought it in 1957, but the battery seems to have ample room in the holder, so it had some pieces of wood to keep it from moving around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 04:25 pm:

You don't a solanoid, water pump or some type of specialty motor oil for a Model T. The group 1 batteries have been around forever. From the 1920's till now. That's a good thing for T owners because you buy them most anywhere.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 05:02 pm:

John Regan - There is one really nice feature of a 6-volt Optima battery though John,....completely sealed and no corrosion from venting,....battery terminals & cables always nice and clean and corrosion free, unlike a lot of conventional lead-acid 6-volt batteries,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vieux Carre on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 05:10 pm:

The foot switch in my '26 carries the full current to the starter so there is no need of a solenoid. A guy named Bill (no longer alive) told me that some batteries had a board underneath, others a box.
Vern


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, June 18, 2017 - 10:53 pm:

Harold - You might want to read the fine print on how well the OPTIMA is sealed. The original designed AGM batteries made by GE/Gates consortium in the beginning were sealed metal jacketed cells (called "X" cells) sealed with safety vent that would blow at 50 PSI which could generally occur only with catastrophic failure of the charger. The later consumer grade plastic case AGM batteries are sealed to 6-8 PSI and can vent when overcharged. You really can not be sure they won't vent unless you can be sure that the charging source cannot fail or can for sure only fail within certain limits. The sales hype ignores some of the facts. They are good batteries but just not the perfection that they are sold as.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 01:12 am:

Hmmm, ....I guess sorta' like when I was young and dumb and thought I got such a good deal on a Rolex that I bought "duty free" and cheap at the USMC base exchange, huh John? Guess now I'm just old and not much smarter, .....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 02:20 am:

(Actually,....that was "duty free" aboard ship out at sea!)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 09:38 am:

Actually Harold the automotive market is constantly being bombarded with some really bad ideas sold by fear tactics mostly. I have been fooled as many times as any other car guy but this forum is a place where bad ideas get "outed" or at least discussed and that is good. AGM is clearly the best battery technology going with regard to Lead Acid Batteries and if used in the right places it delivers the quality that is paid for and that is needed. I have a home security system that uses AGM battery for back up. The exact same battery has been in that system for more than 20 years and I have had numerous power failures over the years and it has always kept the system on the air for more than 8 hours each time it was asked to do that. I recently took the battery out of it to test its condition and I put it back into service since it was still going strong. The charger in that system is uniquely current limited and safe and thus the 8 lb seal in that battery will not fail unless the system is hit by a tornado. Kudo's to the engineer who designed it. It is a Honeywell system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 03:30 pm:

Thanks John,.....you said,...."constantly being bombarded with some really bad ideas sold by fear tactics mostly."

I would add to that,....false and ridiculous claims! I am glad to hear you say that AGM technology such as my two Optima batteries (altho' overpriced) is "clearly the best battery technology going...." however, Optima says something like,...."fifteen times the vibration resistance" or something like that,.....I mean, c'mon now,....what is THAT supposed to mean, right? Fifteen times what??? So how much better is fifteen times better than however much vibration a conventional lead acid battery can stand, right? Meaningless "hype"!!! I still think, and which you have verified John, by relating your experience with AGM, the fact that Optima is probably a very good battery, but really! Crap like that statement is an insult to the intelligence of even an "electrical ignoramus" like me!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Hoops - Burton,Texas on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 04:51 pm:

What I like about the 6 volt Optima batteries is their light weight and the fact that they hold a charge without a trickle charger for months at a time. Also they seem to crank the engines a little faster than the Exide batteries that I had been using for some years. I have them in both of my Model As and one of my Ts. I had been buying the Exides from Tractor Supply and they were only lasting around 18 months. The Exides cost about $90 there and the Optimas cost about $135 on Amazon Prime. I have a 12 volt Optima in my 34 which is at least 11 years old.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Monday, June 19, 2017 - 08:56 pm:

Vern, did the neighbors think you were crazy when you brought that Katrina victim home?
I had to look at your pics at the link in your profile again. You do great work!
I bumped your thread from May just now. Ya gotta show us more! :-)

I'm still listening! I hear ALL of you. :-)

I stopped at the store after work today. Thankfully the local '36 Chevrolet fire truck needs a new group 2 battery for parading.
So the parts guy will buy it for the Fire Department. I must have asked him 5 times "Are you sure?"...
The 6 volt is a special order and cannot be returned. The luck of the Irish was working in my direction today.
So we ordered a group 1 battery today. I didn't go with the Optima. Felt cheap today I guess.

I have a beautiful "new old repro stock" 30 year old switch/mount flat. I just cannot bring myself to drill holes in that frame to mount it.
That said, I should re-assess the gaping hole in the lower heel plate flat that someone hacked out and put a switch in it 60 to 70 years ago or more.

Holes

Oh! That's what I was going to ask!
Those of you that do not have battery boxes in your holders, what thickness of plywood etc to raise the battery up to the clamps and what issues have you encountered with battery height or lack of battery height and cable issues without a box?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 08:20 pm:

I picked up the group 1 battery today.
So I tried a dry run just now. Had the daughter bring the battery over and we put it in the carrier. I haven't seen my strap for years.
It's a bit low in the carrier. Since the tray was welded in the carrier how many years ago, I'll prolly leave it there.

carrier

Yes, I know the clamps are upside down! The clamp mount in view did need a tweak IF I decide to use this setup as is.
The bend in this right hand end of the clamp mount is just a bit closer to the end of the part compared to the left.
The left side was right on. Slide the clamps under the caps, tighten the nuts and voila.
I've witnessed batteries tops being "sprung" by shop built angle iron hold-downs on other products so we need to be a bit careful about how tight a carrier, battery and clamp are tightened together.
I also added flat washers to the 5152B clamp set that's been sitting unopened for 30? years.
In the airline ground support industry, you do not put nuts or lock washers on a slot.
Ya need a flat washer on a slot first.
It hurt a bit cutting this old bag open. My ol' lady's been cut on before but this is different. Ba-dump ching... :-)

bag


At this height, I'll need extra protection for the positive cable where it'll go across the frame of the carrier.
A piece of split hose or loom on the carrier will take care of chafing issues for many years.
Ya get a taste of what I have to work with. I obviously use what came with IF I can. :-) Birds sing. Cheap, Cheap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, June 21, 2017 - 08:47 pm:

Your clamps are actually right side up. If you put them the other way they will cut into the top of the battery. You could raise the battery by cutting a thin board to fit into the bottom of the holder.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 06:31 pm:

I wish I could post to this thread without it being bumped back to the top.
Bah! Duane, let 'em see your foibles!
Norm, boy do I feel like a bubblehead. I get it now! Thank you. :-)

I've felt this way before and will again.
dunce
Why is he so familiar looking? An actor from the 60's-70's?

Hahahaha! I need to remember I have a lot of other little details that I'll try to muck-up before I'm done with this car.
Thanks guys! :-)

Roar, did you get your battery box query answered yet?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Friday, June 23, 2017 - 11:48 am:

Duey C,

If I did, I missed it.
Thanks for asking!

Roar


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Friday, June 23, 2017 - 01:02 pm:

I did some research when I needed to replace my WWII jeep battery, also 6v but wanted a correct appearance, so no Optima option unless I wanted to pay big bucks for a new Optima in a vintage hard rubber case.
The jeep was a group 2 size, and I went with the CAT battery from my local CAT dealer. About $100, no core bs, more cca's and reserve than others and, here's the kicker, a 72 month warranty. That's six years. Not the one or two on other brands.
I dolled it up for the jeep to look like an old Willard battaery and it has been great for the few months I have ownded it with no trickle charger on it although I will put one on for the winter.
CAT makes a group 1 battery as well. Here is the link:

https://parts.cat.com/en/catcorp/8T-9734

I think the CAT batteries shoud enter into any 6v battery discussion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Friday, June 23, 2017 - 11:14 pm:

Bob, that's bizarre! Their group 1 is a dry cell? Am I missing something? Yet it says it takes a gallon and a pint of acid to fill it, they say.
What does the word dry mean to battery manufacturers these days?
The last dry cell I knew about was my buddies in his '67 Chevy and we were teenagers. He had cousins around Chicago and they would send batteries out to the farm for testing. That's 35 years ago in the early 80's. They used that dry cell for years.
Six years for a warranty? That's outstanding! I got one year. I need to get a 6 volt battery minder to keep my 12 volt battery minder company.
The twelve volt shown in the CAT pic looks VERY familiar. Very. I or my people, in my old life, have put those batteries in boxes on equipment.
Not with a CAT logo tho. The one shown looks like a group 31 for UPS or FED EX.
I'm glad you brought this up!

Roar's question was whether his 26 Touring is supposed to have a battery box in the carrier.
Roar, let's see if you get a response. :-)
Standard or optional?

I got nothing done again today. Rode with the Overland friend after my 4 hour work day to pick up parts of a C cab TT he bought.
In the deal, a 28 Nash Doctor's Coupe chassis was delivered to his place (fairly rough) just after noon today. That thing is huge!
The TT C cab isn't really pic worthy.
He has the upper rear and sides of the cab (fair with NO original wood in the rafters), the passengers door (fair), both striker panels (poor), the lower rear of the cab (poor).
The parts mostly suck. 1925 engine with small brake drum. #11,70X,XXX, itching for a clean-up and check.
Plus some other parts for the truck. The chassis will come next month.
Where is that folder/tablet for the Eden Valley Car Show for tomorrow? It'd let me know where I am at for the order of our music.
70's classic rock at a car show? ABSOLUTELY! We are contrarian!
I need a nap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, June 24, 2017 - 11:15 am:

The battery manufacturers must hold their battery sizes to the correct size for a group one. I'm not aware of any variations. Group 2's are not an issue here, because that is not what Ford used in a Model T. As I recall back in my Ford Obsolete days, there was even a group 2 low, which was made specifically for early Ford V-8s.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Saturday, June 24, 2017 - 02:21 pm:

Bump to get rid of the spam


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Tuesday, July 04, 2017 - 08:56 pm:

I wish I would've paid attention to all the 6 volt batteries listed in the book at the store. Cripes there was probably 8 different ones.
I've read about a long and narrow for some mfgr but never heard of a "low" bat for the early V-8's. Larry, that's just cool.

Starter was fried/needs help. I'd bet they cranked it for so long that the bus bar melted the solder on the terminal post, the left hand winding, sprung up and grounded out. That was 30 years ago.

It never talked to them as the cam timing was WAY off.
Thank heavens.
The oil tube was plugged and the magneto oiler's output fitting was screwed into the block in a pan bolt hole.
No oil would've gotten to the front of the engine.
I found that stuff last fall.

I grabbed a starter in the stash, brought it up, cleaned it and the test was very promising.
I ain't showing any pics as the 30 year old repro, braided ground cable is routed wrong, in the wrong place and there is a solenoid secured to a control shaft bolt.

I have a model T with a Gol Darned starter! Strange feeling.

Replacing that weepy sediment bulb is next.

Roar's question still stands unless I missed it elsewhere. :-)
Is the battery box standard or an option?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Wednesday, July 05, 2017 - 07:46 pm:

I take it, nobody knows.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, July 05, 2017 - 08:13 pm:

Hahaha! I'll take it you're correct! :-)
Too bad, but we tried! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, July 05, 2017 - 09:09 pm:

Duey, your clamps are NOT battery clamps. They are the clamps used to hold down the original battery cover on the tin battery box. They are up side down for their original purpose.

I use those same camps to hold the battery firmly in place in the battery carrier. You need two blocks of wood cut to the thickness required. These go between the battery case and the clamp. Nylock nuts will allow you to tighten the clamps down just enough to secure the battery, and will not back off with this minimal pressure.

The wood block also helps reduce acid corrosion as it acts as an insulator between the battery and the clamp.

Hope this helps.
allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, July 05, 2017 - 11:29 pm:

You darned tootin' it helps Allan! Thank you. :-)
I see now. A piece of wood on top of the battery, under the clamps. Good grief, that makes perfect sense.
Hah! I used Nylocks all over on my crappy T but this one has been stuck with lock washers, castle nuts, wire and keys.
Nylocks have been used on airline ground support equipment for many years. That's how I learned... :-)
American said about 25 years ago that they wanted Nylocks on their equipment instead of Centerlocks as Nylocks have a better repeatability rate.
You can use them twice or so...
Hmmm, a couple of pieces of 1/4" plywood are in order next. One piece to raise the battery a bit, the other to insulate the acid from the clamps.
Shoot, a notch will wear in the wood (from the clamps) if soft enough and stay in place yet keep the battery top from being damaged.
Damned novel idea.
I'm dreaming of a piece of 1/4 luan cut in the shape of a square hoop to suit the battery size...
Wait a minute.
Heck, if I added a piece of 1/4 luan plywood from the shop right now, I could still get away with the height of all parts! Yes?

battery

Here's what I have right now and I'm showing a bit more than I wanted...
I have a piece of half inch plywood in the tray that was welded in the carrier sometime in the past, a piece of hard foam or some-such on top of that and then the battery.
The tray's sides are just high enough so the foam shouldn't ever get away.
A "hoop" of 1/4" plywood would be just perfect under those clamps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Thursday, July 06, 2017 - 05:16 am:

Duey, if you turn the clamps up the correct way, you can use thicker solid timber rather than plywood. Looking at your photo, the blocks need to be around 1" thick. They only need to be about 3"long so they don't get in the way of the leads and fillers.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carey on Thursday, July 06, 2017 - 07:54 am:

My local Tractor Supply is having a sale on group 1 batteries. $69.95


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Thursday, July 06, 2017 - 08:20 am:

To answer the persistent question, asked far above by Roar Sand, regarding the battery box: they were standard equipment on all Fords (T and TT) if fitted with the Starting and Generating System.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Thursday, July 06, 2017 - 10:34 pm:

Bill, thank you much for this.
Persistence pays off. We got our answer! :-)
I wonder how many battery boxes I've seen over the years and never knew what they really were.
That's a great price for a battery Tom!
Allan, I think I finally have it figured out. I almost had it but wasn't seeing a detail or two of yours in my mind's eye.
I'll try the 1" blocks and flip the clamps.

Thank you.
Duane
:-)


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