Any differences in 1917 and 1920 frame/axles?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Any differences in 1917 and 1920 frame/axles?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 01:22 pm:

Visited the family T barn and what is being represented to me as a 1917 roadster has a 1920 engine it. Might be a replacement or the whole thing may be a 1920. Body is various parts scattered to the wind, so only rolling chasis is in play.
I can take and post photos later, but don't know what to look for if there are any specifics to look for.
Current starter switch plate is riveted to frame which I have not seem before. Switch is gone, only mounting plate. Mystery hole in plywood firewall right above steering colum, about 1/2" in diameter. No horn. No battery frame, but electric headlights and starter, so don't know where battery should go.
Small drim rear wheels with external brake shoes. riveted running board and fender irons. Support rods across frame from running board bracket to running board bracket. Exhaust cut out, but no exhaust whistle. Cut out with butterfly plate for carbon issues? Holly n/h card with hot air tube. Switch on coil box is disassembles, but looks like lights are wired to it, mounted on firewall coil box.

let me know what to look for to date this frame so I know how to refer to the KS roadster T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 01:27 pm:

Frames were essentially all the same from 1913-1920.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 02:23 pm:

Except that, correct me if I'm wrong, around '14 the "DB" stamp disappeared, perhaps even the TW stamp. I think maybe around '17 Ford was stamped (rather embossed?) on the axles as perhaps they were making their own then?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brad Marble on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 02:59 pm:

Robert: You have a good one, from 1917 to 1920 the chassis are all the same, you might be able to determine a rough date if you find a bracket for a battery under the rear floor. The electric starter was not offered until 1919 and then only on closed cars. Brad.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 03:27 pm:

By March 1919 a lot of parts got marked Ford that hadn't been before, among them the front crossmember. Here's a picture showing the placement :
(So if no such can be found, it's likely an older frame that's been modernized with the starter equipment.)

jiu


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 03:41 pm:

And of course, the change from wishbone above the front axle to below came during 1919, later than the addition of Ford markings. The Timken roller bearings for the front wheels were also introduced - only non starter open cars kept ball bearings into 1920.
http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc19.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 06:39 pm:

I know from memory that the wishbone rods are mounted underneath the front axle. I check every T frame I "see" for that safety feature.

So, I'm thinking it's all 1920 unless I feel something different.

any thoughts on the starter switch? with it being riveted to the frame, that would follow the thinking of matching the starter equipted moter which is 1920. Would think it rather unique if a later engine with starter was installed and the local shop actually riveted the starter switch in rather than bolt it on. JMO


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JD, Wichita, KS on Thursday, June 22, 2017 - 06:54 pm:

I don't think 1917 frames had holes for the battery mount.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Matthiesen on Friday, June 23, 2017 - 03:51 am:

Robert, The riveted starter switch bracket that you show is typical for 1919, 1920, early 1921 starter equipped cars that used the forged running board brackets as your car does. Does the rear axel have a closed or open drive shaft spool ? Is the rear axel fill plug on the axle center line or well below the center line ? The fill plug was lowered in 1919 and the driveshaft spool changed to open sometime in 1920.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Friday, June 23, 2017 - 10:59 am:

That bracket for the starter switch is correct, and not common. You are fortunate to have it. Brad from above better do some homework on frames.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, June 24, 2017 - 02:15 am:

Also,sometime in early 1920 calendar year frames began being produced with both sets of holes to mount the running board brackets. In anticipation of the introduction of the pressed steel running board brackets.
So it is emphatically possible to have an original frame with,forged brackets, but with the holes for the pressed ones.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, June 24, 2017 - 02:20 am:

And,the rear radius rods look like they are the ones without the seam on the bottom.The front of the seamless ones have a more tapered look,like these do.And,they were much better than the seamed ones that rust away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, June 24, 2017 - 06:03 am:

On the axles, depends upon which one you're talking about, but the front ones there seems to be difference between domestic and Canadian and also the Foreign as well...I saw a picture of a French built front end that had the front spring perch on top of the wishbone which was sitting on top of the axle, instead of through the spring perch as on the domestics. I made a series of drawings on these, if you want them, pm me and I'll email them to you.

As to frames...haven't gotten there yet. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, June 24, 2017 - 12:01 pm:

The english drop frame chassis with over the axle wishbone wasn't used until late 1924 for the 1925 cars - also used 1926/27 for most of the T's sold in europe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chadwick Azevedo on Saturday, June 24, 2017 - 02:22 pm:

Bump to get rid of the spam


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Saturday, June 24, 2017 - 02:45 pm:

OK, so I'll look at the radius rods next time I am out in KS as well as the drive tube. If the riveted starter switch bracket is rare and I want to keep it, is there a replacement starter switch that will connect to it? Or do I need to cobble or weld a repo switch to this bracket?
From memory, I did not feel any additional holes around the starter switch bracket and the fuel tank strap, so I don't think this frame was drilled for the stamped steel running board brackets. I also did not feel any holes in the frame where I thought the battery tray would bolt in like it does on my 26/27 frame. I don't have the body to look for battery access panels or locations under seats. It was intended to be a roadster and I guess we are leaning towards it being a 1920 roadster. Was the battery in the frame that bolted to the both frame rails with an access through the turtle deck floor? The seat frame seems to be all fuel tank, so no battery access there. A running board mount or other location?

Thanks for all the items to look for to help clear up the family mystery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Saturday, June 24, 2017 - 03:14 pm:

anti-spam bump


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