https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/atq/6182508328.html. So what do you eggsperts think about this one? I am no expert so I'm looking for a critique. I'm thinking about this one. Thanks
I always get a chuckle when someone says its easy to get a title. My advice,If its so easy for them to get the title then let them get the title. Never buy a car without the right paperwork.
Looks fairly unmolested; updated wheels, or course. The body wood looks like it should be good, judging by the straight sides and door fits. The front seeat back appears to be original, note the first "fold is leather, and the rest is leatherette. Rear seats also look original. Take plenty of pictures and notes that show just how much "fill" is in the piping and where the buttons are, many reupholstery jobs get that wrong.
Do wonder about the title, but I don't know how Texas deals with them. If he's had the car that long, how come he doesn't have license, etc. for it?
Might possibly be a '16 because of the black headlight and sidelight rims.
Wishbone is under the front axle not through the perch and the headlights and side lights are black...15's the tops and bezels are brass...I'd say this is a 1916, they were brass radiators too.
Nice car, should make a proud addition to somebody's collection. I think it's funny he didn't provide an engine number...maybe he knows somebody might check and find it's not really a 15...buy hey 16 is almost as good in my opinion as 15...not as pretty perhaps, but it's over 100 years old and that's a good price for that car. But I don't believe it's 15 at all.
Need more pics, clearer ones too, I didn't look at the W/S brackets nor hinges (and on dial-up, I don't want to take a half-hour to reload them) There are lots of features that are unique to the '15/16 models. IMHO, '16 nowadays are rarer because so many were turned into '15s to meet HCCA rules. Remember, the '16 models started in the fall of '15. My '16 was made in Dec. of '15, but it is a '16 year model--that meets the HCCA requirements! Heh heh heh! And yes, it gets all those black parts instead of brass, but there's still enough brass to polish!
The under-axle wishbone is a later piece, that could have been done "in the day." On my car, I have the auxiliary one, for safety.
PS, When I bought my '16 the previous owner had purchased reproduction brass pieces to "correct" the car (this was back in the early 1960s) so it was likely on its way to becoming another "faux '15" -- not under my ownership though! BTW, mine is "one of the first million" --not by much, but it is!
Now all I have to do is finish it. . . .
I would buy it. :-)
I have seen many much worse. I also noted that the radiator is an after-market variety. Neither here nor there, but should be considered. The spark/throttle handles appear to be the correct '15 style (a plus indicating maybe it could have been a genuine '15). Of course, a closer look at a dozen other details would have to be made to determine that for certain. As others mentioned, some of the front axle/wishbone and wheels are incorrect. I would expect the engine is likely later also. Again, a close look could determine that.
Note that the side panel by the front seat has the "rivet" (actually a carriage bolt) in one of three common locations. This detail is still being debated. Exactly when and what body suppliers put that "rivet" where is still not known for certain. It would be interesting to check around the front seat and floor area for details of which body supplier built this one, and if it has a viable date code. Hap Tucker is trying to sort some of this out.
There were a lot of details specific to the '15 and '16 Ts. Those photos only show a few.
I emailed for the engine # for the forums curiosity.
I am also reposting the photo's here for future prosperity, and research before the listing disappears.
If I was looking for a brass car, I'd buy this. This seems like a fair deal. Heck my '25 Canadian cut off was only 2k less, and this looks like fairly complete, even if a few parts are wrong.
Thank you for the inputs. I will try and arrange a meeting next day or two. Will take photos.
Is this car in Texas?
It looks pretty good to me. Model Ts were driven mostly by owners who didn't have huge amounts of money. I suspect if someone's T needed parts, in many cases the owner would install whatever he could find that would work; he wasn't worried about authenticity 80 years later. I would be astonished to find a T that had been driven regularly that was totally as built. My '27 came pretty close, but it still had an incorrect steering wheel, steering column, and horn. Two of the three have been corrected and the parts are on the way for the third. I have however, installed an incorrect flat-tube radiator and it's staying!
The add is gone.
Not surprised, that looks like a real deal. BTW, that is a pre-horn-button steering column, so it might be a real '15. Also, the windshield looks right.
So, anyone here buy it??
Yes it's gone but not to me. Thanks gentlemen for all of your input. Better luck next time!
Thanks for adding the photos. It makes research later a lot easier.
Note, the body does NOT have the half-moon cut out that the 1917-1923 black radiator cars have. It is a little hard to see, but the bottom of the top cowl goes straight across. Below I tried to adjust the contrast of the original photo to make that easier to see:
When they switched to the black radiator they added a half moon cut out so they could remove the radiator support rod without having to lift the body off the frame a little bit or gain a little clearance some other way. That half moon cut out is shown below. (Disclaimer the firewall was made by a teenager who wanted to drive the 1918 so it is not a firewall to copy.)
I believe the engine is most likely a non-generator block that has had a starter ring gear, starter hogs head, starter, etc. added to it. Note the width of the serial pad -- cropped from the original photos.
Compare that to a 1915 serial number from Model T Haven (Used by permission -- than you Mark!)
Compare that to serial number pad on a May 3, 1916 serial number shown below (Thank you Michael):
For went to the 7 digit serial number on Dec 10, 1915 (ref Bruce McCalley "Model T Ford" page 512). I would speculate that the serial number pad was made longer before it was needed but not later than Dec 10, 1915.
Based on that the engine in the car with the 4 7 1? casting date (Apr 7, 191?) the engine would probably NOT be an Apr 7, 1916 casting date as the serial number would be 1,178,474 or higher (ref McCalley page 512). And a 7 digit would not fit on the small serial pad unless the numbers were smaller than normally used? So I suspect the casting date is Apr 7, 1915.
Wayne is correct that there is some debate over when the carriage bolt in the side of the touring body began. For Beaudett (also spelled Beaudette and referred to as Pontiac in many of the Ford Motor Company records we have documented examples where they continued the 1914 style wood seat frame construction at least until Aug 1915 and that body has a Sep 1915 engine number. Those touring bodies did NOT have a carriage bolt in the side. But other 1915 body makers may have gone to the metal seat frames earlier. We are still looking for good examples or documentation to confirm that one way or the other (or to say it varied).
I hope whoever becomes the new owner the car that had been listed on Craig's List will share a few more details about the car.
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I brought the car home, here's what know. It has a casting date of 6-7-15. A starter was added some years back, cowl lights are wrong. Has a 15 rear end, still has the metal gas tank cover under the seat. Has a really neat tire rack. Coil box lid is correct. Car was sold on Ebay in August of 14 from Kenyon Mn. I don't think it ever ran in Texas before yesterday. Be glad to take pictures and answer any questions.
Bob, take lots of photos, even measurements of that interior--it looks to be mostly original! Congrats on getting what looks like a mostly unmolested car!
Congratulations on a nice 1915! Yes, please take photos and share etc.
From looking at the photos, I believe there is a good chance the wood is original to the body. Would you please look on the right front floor board riser area (passenger side) -- the part that holds the top 2 floorboards. That is the most common area for the body number to be located -- especially in a metal seat framed car.
Hopefully there will also be a letter there or perhaps stamped into the front seat heel panel or possibly the rear seat heel panel. For additional tips on what and where to look for the body number 1909-1923 open cars, please see the posting, "Home for the Holidays" at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html
Also in the photos that were previously posted, I cannot tell for sure if the cowl section does or does not have the 7 visible rivets across the top as shown in the photo below. Please let us know which way your body is. (From memory -- thank you Mike for sharing the photo -- and if I have that wrong -- thank you to whoever sent me that one. Note the extra 1915 style light switch was added by an owner and works the tail light.)
By the way -- thank you again for all the help in getting Ghost the 1915 Centerdoor out of the garage. And again, congratulations on a nice T!
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(Message edited by Hap_tucker on June 29, 2017)
The front seat riser has a W in the upper center. The body number is stamped on the wood that the front floor boards rest on the right side. There is a metal trim peace on the back seat. The cowl has no rivets, the fire wall has been replaced.
Hap -- Yes, that cowl with the rivets was on my car. It was a Hayes body produced in March of '15, so it was a fairly early '15 Touring. ('15 open cars were not produced in any numbers until Feb. of '15.)
Hey, Bob -- Any updates on Ghost?
Drifting along, singing a song!
Yeah, How is Ghost?
For Bob Shirley,
Thank you for posting the photos. You can see the W 5 15 511959 on the floor board riser.
The "W" stamped in front of the body number and also stamped on the top center of the front seat heel panel indicates the body was produced by the Wilson Body Company for Ford. The 5 space 15 space indicates May 1915 the body was produced. (Disclaimer -- it might be something else -- but it appears to indicate when the body was produced. We are always looking for additional information to either further confirm that is the case or to show "oops" that is not the case.)
The 511959 part we are still not sure of what that means. Our current guess is that is the serial number of the body (along with the other 5 16). We are also hoping to eventually be able to find a correlation of that number to the serial numbers of the car. I.e. a range so we could say if you have a serial number 123 then your body number would normally be in this date range. We will have to wait for additional samples to find out if there is or isn't any correlation to the numbers and when the cars were assembled.
When you have a chance, please let us know what the engine serial number is (you can xxx the last three or even four digits) and/or let us know what date Bruce's book says the engine number was listed on the engine log.
For Mike - thanks for clarifying the photo was from the 1915 you had.
For Mike and Wayne -- Bob Shirley along with Seth Harbuck helped me get Ghost ready to be moved. Bob Kiefaber took responsibility of becoming the new caretaker for Ghost. Hey -- it is like one of my kids that went away to get married. I like to know that Ghost has a good loving home. The thread on moving Ghost is at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/142783.html And Bob Kiefaber has kindly let me know how things have been going. The Centerdoor's body sills had to be replaced but a lot of the other wood was still usable. He has gotten it running and the body rewooded. Ghost has a very good future at this time. And I am very thankful. One of my Dad's dreams was to preserve that car. And Bob Kiefaber is bringing that dream to fulfillment. Thanks!
Now back to the regular scheduled thread about Bob Shirley's new unrestored and lots of original items (the metal tack strip etc.) still on the car.
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Ooh, good point Hap, I saw the pic, but the tack strip didn't stand out; more indication of an original interior. Not all cowls have rivets; my '16 B. ('15 Dec) has no rivets.
"Bob Shirley along with Seth Harbuck helped me get Ghost ready to be moved. Bob Kiefaber took responsibility of becoming the new caretaker for Ghost."
Sorry, I got my Bobs confused.
Thanks for all the help and information! The floor boards are the same wood as the body, Birch?? They are drilled and notched for a speedometer and also cut for something under the steering column? The brass grommet that may have been for a foot control accelerator?? The hole under the grommet looks factory, maybe a finger hold? The first number is an upside-down Eight. I went to the County Judge and then to the County clerks office and the title should be here in two weeks. Thanks again for the help.
Bob, yes, a finger hole used to lift that board first. Notch on right (pass) side is for speedometer cable, notch under steering wheel, hmm, horn tube? Don't have books handy to check, I'll let someone else chime in with more info. Big hole to right of coilbox is for the headlight switch; good repros are now available. Speedo would have been mounted to right of headlight switch. I don't know what the oval piece is to the right of the pedal plates either.
That could be for an exhaust cutout?
The June 1915 engine date argues against that left notch being for a horn tube, unless this was a case of using up old parts (floorboards) or a later 1915 replacement engine in an early 1915 car. What has me puzzled is the large rectangular notch. I'd like to see how it fits with the 1915 dash shield. And what about those unribbed pedals?
Ah, unribbed pedals, good catch. The Ribbed pedals, here in the states, were very short-lived, but no book handy to tell you when. Of course, the hogshead could have been replaced, especially if it's a cast iron one, as this early should have aluminum. Yes, the notch is for clearing the head. The board could be "used up stock" with the notch for the horn tube and it not used.
It's got a starter hogs.
Then that would explain the plain pedals! I should have looked back at the photos, I see that now. Duh!! Some days I'm just too lazy. . .
At some time in life a starter was added, no battery box was added. The rear floor boards match the other wood and are held in place by triangle strips screwed in place on each side, and of course it was not possible to add a normal generator. The peddles are probably correct to the hogs head but not for the car. I plan on leaving the self commencer (starter) but not sure where to put the battery. It's in the back floor for now and it doesn't seem proper to drill the frame and mess up the floor boards. There is an exhaust cut out and the pedal is located about center of the board closest to the seat riser. The fan belt is pretty neat, it is just lapped with two flat head copper rivets with washers.
Battery's often would have been put in a battery box on the running board, drivers side. Love the fan belt, that would stay as long as it held out!
Bob, that's the wrong fan arm for a 15/16, and some thing is astray on that timing cover as well, missing the casting and bolt for adjustment.
After a hundred years I think a majority of Model T's fall into the category of parts salad, some a little and some a lot.
I love that fan belt. Even if I set out to make everything "correct" on the car, I'd keep that belt.
Got the title, not that hard in Texas, with the help of a County Judge.
What a nice car.
I'd get it running while doing only the necessary things to the cosmetics. It really has a great look.