Starter motor mounting holes do not line up

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Starter motor mounting holes do not line up
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 03:31 pm:

I was going to install the starter motor in the engine today and decided to do a "dry" fit before using the gasket and sealer. The holes in the starter flange do not line up with the threaded holes in the casting on the hogs head. Curious.

The starter is original to the car but during the rebuild I found the hogs head was more worn than I wanted to fix ... so found another of the same type. So now the starter doesn't want to slide into place for installing g the bolts. Must be binding on something on the inside. The mag coil casting is also new to the car but is the correct type with the notch.

Should I put some Prussian Blue on the shaft housing and see what it marks on the inside? Then grind what's high on the motor mount ... or is there something simple I've overlooked?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 03:33 pm:

I assume you DONT have the bendix drive installed on the starter, right!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Downeast Maine on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 03:46 pm:

Did you happen to change out the magneto coil? If so was it notched for the starter?

A friend who was getting on in years had an engine rebuilt by a competent person several years ago and knowing it was coming he had a ring gear and (he thought) magneto coil changed at the time. A few years later, when the friend could no longer crank his car I offered to change the hogshead and put in a starter... Boy was I surprised when I had the hogshead off!

It happens to the best is what I'm saying...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Downeast Maine on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 03:48 pm:

Oh, and to Les's point, you can't install the starter with the bendix on it, you damage the coils on the ring when you do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Loso St Joseph, MN on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 04:16 pm:

Is the bolt that comes through the oil pan into the hogshead on the inside sticking up and not flush? When looking towards the rear of the car it would be on the bottom left of the starter motor. I use a lock washer and a bolt that just comes up flush.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 04:29 pm:

Yes, I removed the bendix and as I mentioned above .. the magneto coil ring is notched for a starter. I also checked that threaded 9/16 bolt that comes up from below into the corner of the hogs head casting. It is not in the way.

This feels like it's pressing against something inside. Might the new insulated windings on the magneto coil ring be a little thick and rubbing against the cast housing of the starter motor that goes inside?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 04:49 pm:

Mark do you have another old or junk starter you can remove the starter nose end from?
Maybe you can try to mont it alone and see what happens.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 05:02 pm:

I only have the starter that came with the car. I'm going to put some prussian blue on the shaft casting, carefully slide it in place and see if it marks the coil winding in that spot to see if my hunch is correct. It's pouring rain right now .. will try when it lets up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 06:11 pm:

Yes, I removed the bendix and as I mentioned above .. the magneto coil ring is notched for a starter. I also checked that threaded 9/16 bolt that comes up from below into the corner of the hogs head casting. It is not in the way.

This feels like it's pressing against something inside. Might the new insulated windings on the magneto coil ring be a little thick and rubbing against the cast housing of the starter motor that goes inside?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 06:45 pm:

Is the snout turned the correct way? The open side should be to the flywheel side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 06:49 pm:

Yes ... and the contact for the battery is up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 08:13 pm:

You say you dry fit the transmission cover---is it bolted down and in place correctly? Not angled in anyway?
Maybe loosen up the transmission cover to see what would happen.
If the starter will go in then tighten down and see if you can pull the starter straight out with no binding.
I have installed 3 rebuilt mag rings and the starters went in OK on my 3 T's.
But then again I have always had to move the starter around a little as I can't remember having one just go straight in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 08:19 pm:

The "dry fit" might be the cause of the problem. The starter is fitted with just the proper clearance of the gear from the ring on the flywheel. If there is no gasket between the hogs head and the crankcase it would move the starter closer to the flywheel and magneto ring. Try it with the gasket. If you still want to "dry fit" put the gasket in without any sealer then try the starter and if it fits, carefully take things apart and apply the sealer. Even the felt strip between the block and the hogs head will help to center things in that area.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 08:55 pm:

Just because the terminal is up does not mean the snout is installed correct. The snout casting is not indexed to the case and the mounting holes are evenly spaced. You could in fact mount the snout in several different positions including 180 off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 09:05 pm:

Ha ! Found the problem. It wasn't due to not using a gasket for the dry fit and it wasn't the mag coil. It was the frame. While removing the starter motor I noticed that there was a groove worn in the starter flange on the bottom side near the frame.

Having done a full tear down of the chassis there was evidently a slight shift of the frame when I installed the engine. Just enough to prevent the flange holes from lining up ever so slightly. So I ground off just enough to have the holes line up plus no rubbing of the starter flange with the frame. All fixed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 09:22 pm:

Do you have the wood blocks between the inside of the frame and the crankcase arms? Those missing might allow your problem to occur.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 09:27 pm:

Yes, installed new wood blocks and was careful not to over tighten the side bolt. Like I said ... there was already a groove worn into the side of the starter flange; so this was already a problem that had evidently been there for years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Sunday, June 25, 2017 - 09:45 pm:

Do you have the wood blocks between the inside of the frame and the crankcase arms? Those missing might allow your problem to occur.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, June 26, 2017 - 11:00 am:

How did that happen ?
I did the entry at 9:22 but the system repeated it at 9:45???
Who knows ??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, June 26, 2017 - 12:21 pm:

Tony,

Did you read my earlier message? Yes, had new wood blocks and didn't tighten them too much. Evidently this had been a problem before as the flange had some wear from years of rubbing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, June 26, 2017 - 12:43 pm:

It is possible that the frame or crankcase is bent. If it is the crankcase, it could lead to a broken crankshaft. When you rebuilt the engine did you have the crankcase aligned? They can get out of line easily by a hard bump to the front or rear axle which are both connected to the crankcase by the radius rods.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Monday, June 26, 2017 - 12:43 pm:

Tony - the ghost of William Durant is attacking the T site!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, June 26, 2017 - 02:21 pm:

Crankcase looked good .. and the forth bearing in the cap fit with no binding on the shaft. I suspect the frame where the wood blocks go was pulled in a little. Then I used a replacement hogshead ... so it was a new marriage of old parts that needed tweaking. But thanks for the seed of doubt that will haunt me for years! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Wetherbee - Downeast Maine on Monday, June 26, 2017 - 03:46 pm:

All is good that ends like this. Funny you mentioned a notch in the flange, I've seen that before and thought nothing of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Monday, June 26, 2017 - 05:38 pm:

Very interesting Mark.
I had been watching your thread but never said anything as I thought I didn't have anything to add.
I should've gone out to look at the 18 with a 23 engine in it; I just did.
The frame is worn slightly from the hogs head and the starter vibrating against it plus the starter body is a trifle larger than the top and LH side of the hogs head.
There ain't room in there for a piece of paper..
Hah! Just looked at the Crappy 24, it has a 19 starter engine (with block off plates) and there's 3/16"+ clearance! Plenty of room.
Very interesting.


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