Pushing horn button kills engine??

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Pushing horn button kills engine??
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Finchum on Sunday, July 09, 2017 - 08:34 pm:

While learning "Ollie" my 1919 touring the horn button works sort of when running on battery. But when running on mag I push horn button and it wants to kill the engine???. Anyone else encounter this. Been gone for over a week so now back home and need to try and find a club. Anyone in central Indiana? I have a few more questions but one at a time.Thanks.CF.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, July 09, 2017 - 09:23 pm:

Your horn is not wired to the car correctly and you really DO NOT want to honk the horn until you straighten out the wiring since you might have the battery AND magneto being connected somehow and that can hurt your magneto. You need to trace the horn wiring out to see where the wire goes. Normally a 1919 would have a magneto horn so it would NOT honk unless the motor is running. If yours just "clicks" when the motor is not running then your magneto horn is probably connected to the battery and you really do want to double check the wiring before you screw up your magneto. It is easy to mess things up. The main danger is having the magneto connected to the battery since that will not just run down the battery but will cause the magnets inside your motor to be discharged by the battery DC voltage being applied directly to the magneto post which sits at the top of the hogshead (Transmission Bell housing).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, July 09, 2017 - 09:46 pm:

Here's 1922-1927 wiring. For the reasons John mentioned, be sure everything is connected correctly. Note: This is with the battery horn. For 1919-1921 I believe a magneto horn would be connected at #2, not #1. Anybody who knows better can straighten me out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Sunday, July 09, 2017 - 09:55 pm:

Carl-
A 1919 touring "should" have a magneto horn.
Does your car have a magneto horn or battery horn?
Does the car have a later engine with a starter and generator?


Magneto horn


battery horn

: ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Finchum on Sunday, July 09, 2017 - 10:10 pm:

OK thanks. Horn does not do anything when engine is off. when on battery it works but does not seem to make good contact when pushing button. but yeah on mag it acts like its trying to kill the engine when pushed. Have a timer issue I'll ask in another thread. One new guy problem at a time...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Finchum on Sunday, July 09, 2017 - 10:26 pm:

Keith, best I can tell is appears to be a battery horn. mine is attached to the firewall with the ears ( my word ) of your picture facing up. feeling around the back it feels like a battery horn. How should a 1919 horn be mounted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Finchum on Sunday, July 09, 2017 - 10:28 pm:

Also I forgot, it has a 1919 motor, but it had a starter added by former owner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, July 09, 2017 - 11:13 pm:

BOTH of the pictured horns above are Magneto horns. Battery horns have the back side removable with 2 screws only and NEVER have that totally flat "butterfly" mounting bracket. Battery horns first came out in early 1922.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, July 09, 2017 - 11:18 pm:

If your horn looks like EITHER of those above, it is a magneto horn. If not adjusted correctly or if your magneto is a bit weak then the horn button can in fact act like a kill button. Look down into the Bell (snout front end) of the horn and you will see a screwdriver slot in the center of a locking nut that are both mounted to the center of the diaphragm. Battery horns do NOT have that. I am fairly certain you have a magneto horn. Battery horns were only mounted to the dash during the first couple of months in 1922 when they first came out. After that all battery horns mounted to the motor with a formed bracket that mounted to a motor head bolt on one end and a water inlet bolt on the other end. Flat horn bracket = magneto horn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Sunday, July 09, 2017 - 11:36 pm:

Oops! Thanks, John!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek Brookshire, Texas on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 07:17 am:

Carl, 1919 was a transition year for "electrics" and if your engine is a late 1919 build it may have come from the factory with a starter and generator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 10:43 am:

Carl,

I think the horn button on the magneto horn is actually switching to ground. In the diagram, there is a direct connection between the magneto position the coil box and one of the horn contacts.

non-starter wiring


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker, Oklahoma City on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 10:50 am:

Had the same happen to my '24 Touring. Honk the horn, motor dies completely. It just quits. Mine was due to a bad battery connection.

If I had a working mag, then I wouldn't have had that problem! The mag will go back in someday...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 02:18 pm:

The horn is grounding the magneto which kills the engine. If the horn is not adjusted right, the button would just cause it to ground. When it is correct, the diaphram will vibrate opening and closing the connection. Also if the magneto is weak, the horn might be just enough to kill the engine. Question, Does it kill the engine when the engine is going fast or just when idling? The reason I ask is a good magneto will put out more electricity when the engine is going faster. A weak magneto can even cause an engine to quit at idle without honking the horn.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Finchum on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 07:02 pm:

Mr Kling. The horn does want to kill the engine when going down the road. So I guess it happens fast? also when idling. How does one adjust the horn? Is it in the button itself. Thanks CF.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Finchum on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 07:19 pm:

Mr. Brookshire. I think my 1919 is a mid year. If I read the engine numbers right I think it was built in June. The car does not have a generator. The previous owner had it for 27 years, but I think it had a starter put on it before he had it. It did have a horn under the car wired to the starter switch! that previous owner disconnected. I removed the horn because it was hanging there getting dirty, looked like a model A horn to me.When I tried horn it was on Battery, did not think to try it on mag, new guy error.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Hjortnaes, Men Falls, WI on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 07:27 pm:

Carl

I would disconnect the horn wires and wrap them with tape. Get the timer issue fixed and then use the advice from John Regan to get your horn issue straightened out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Doolittle on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 08:39 pm:

Carl- make this easy- disconnect the horn and stop pushing the button.
Why? As mentioned by J Regan and others- if DC current makes its way to the magneto it will kill the magnets. I know- I've been there.
Next- identify your horn- know for sure whether you have a battery horn or a magneto horn. Post a good side-profile photo of your horn on the forum and these folks here can identify it.
This is one area where you can't guess and you can't gamble. A working magneto is a true Model T gift. Lose it and you will spend $$.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 08:57 pm:

I'm sure someone will ask this question sooner or later: "if you push the starter button, does the horn toot?"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen, South Texas on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 08:59 pm:

There's different horn buttons too. Over the years, these get replaced and often the wrong switch is used. The single wire switches provide the ground for the magneto horns with an isolated ground terminal. A wire is run from the horn ground to the switch. When the button is pressed, it contacts ground. The "hot" side of the horn in wired to the coil box. (Shown in the second diagram)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 09:22 pm:

If it is a Model A horn or a type of electric Klackston horn, it should be connected to battery. That type horn will ground the magneto and should not be connected to the magneto.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Finchum on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 01:15 pm:

Here are some pics of horn.

application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.documenthorn pics
ollie picture to upload.docx (183.2 k)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dufault on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 01:31 pm:

I see an auto, but no horn on my screen.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Finchum on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 02:01 pm:

First attempt was not successful. Here is picture of horn with engine. I salute those of you who do not find uploading pictures difficult. I find it frustrating. But I will learn. horn with enginehorn with engine and wires


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Finchum on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 02:08 pm:

couple of more shots. Horn button and inside of horn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Finchum on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 05:04 pm:

horn picshorn picsinside of horn, light switch. wire with blue clip is horn running down to the horn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 05:15 pm:

You have a magneto horn. I bet the terminal or windings in the horn or the horn wire is shorted to ground and when you push the button it's connecting the mag to ground which is why the engine dies. It could also be that your magneto is simply not strong enough to run the coils and horn.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Finchum on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 05:51 pm:

If I read the ford schematic right that Mr. Mullin posted, it looks like a wire should go from the horn to the mag terminal then to the switch. At some point it looks like someone just went to the switch from the horn. Could that be the problem, and how can I test the horn? I'm really new at this. The wiring looks old, maybe not original but old.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Carl Finchum on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 03:52 am:

Was wondering if the problem could be in the horn-light switch. I've disconnected it but not sure what my next move should be.CF.


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration