Drat! Stuck in gear.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Drat! Stuck in gear.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, July 09, 2017 - 11:30 pm:

As I pulled into the driveway I tromped down on the low pedal and pulled the hand lever back to the straight up position. The car bogged down and stalled dead. With the lever straight up or all the way back, the car is in gear. There is no neutral. Curses! I put the top up to keep some of the dew off the seat and called it a night. I'll deal with this mess in the daylight. :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 12:59 am:

Yikes.
Maniacally interested as to what is up!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 11:16 am:

The low pedal link has probably gone "over center". You should be able to pull the low pedal back up by yanking on it by hand.

If your low band is adjusted correctly and you still have a problem with the link going over center, you may have to fabricate a longer link like Royce did in this post:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/478111.html?1410348928


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 11:41 am:

This is another learning experience for us all.

I'm sure Steve will figure it out and give us all the details. He will even enclose pictures! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 01:12 pm:

No, the linkage looks OK and appears to work normally. Both the pedal and the hand lever move the clutch lever the way they should. I thought maybe the clutch release collar had broken or come loose, but that looks OK too. I've removed the hub keys and greased the axle shaft tapers so the car will roll, and this afternoon we'll shove it into the shop where I can investigate further*.


* further is time; farther is distance.
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 01:49 pm:

Hi Steve,

On early cars, such as yours, the clutch shaft (PN 3402B) and the clutch lever (PN 3401) are two separate pieces which are pinned together as is done with the clutch release forks (PN 3406B). While it is unlikely, that pin could have sheared and would then produce the symptom you have experienced. Good luck with your project. Bill

Later cars have the lever and shaft as one piece.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Heavner on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 02:05 pm:

Steve. I am by no means a mechanical expert, but try the hand lever in different positions to find neutral. It has to be there somewhere unless something unusual is happening. I can't wait to find out what happened.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 02:05 pm:

Could it be the inside of the brake drum is worn which causes the disks to stick? That is quite common on the transmissions earlier than 26.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker, Oklahoma City on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 02:06 pm:

Did you use the starter after it stalled?

If so, it could be that your bendix got stuck.

The scenario I imagine is you come back, car stalls, you try to use the starter, but bendix gets stuck, and the original reason why it stalled in the first place has not been addressed.

If the bendix is stuck, push the hand brake all the way forward and then rock the car back and forth.

The other, albeit unlikely, scenario is a broken shaft in the transmission.

My '24 Touring started with a weird condition in that it would not like to go into reverse. Eventually the transmission locked and nothing would help. After determining the problem lay in the transmission, I took it apart and discovered a broken low gear shaft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n LakeOzark,Missourah on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 07:16 pm:

Hopefully you won't have to pull the engine for umpteenth time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 07:20 pm:

Clutch disc break? I have never had it happen, but I have heard of it several times. What kind of clutch do you have ? I would imagine the 25 Ford discs, and you would have inspected them. They usually do not break suddenly, and I have thrown out quite a few of them over the years when putting engines together.
I did take a transmission apart some years ago that had four or five broken discs inside, and it appeared to still be working okay.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, July 10, 2017 - 09:32 pm:

Another sad possible cause. You noted that you stomped the low pedal just before that happened.
Look at my picture. That happened when I pushed the low pedal. The drum was cracked and shattered. I had to jack up one rear wheel on a floor jack to get it onto the trailer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 12:12 am:

Any luck in the diagnosis Steve?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 09:13 pm:

I've been busy with visitors for a couple of days. Before I get back into this I want to ask a couple of things.

Are there any theories not already posted?

Assuming Norms's suggestion is correct (it seems most likely), is there a simple fix that doesn't involve pulling the engine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 09:54 pm:

No! You will need to pull the engine and transmission and then find a good drum and place it in the transmission. You should also check the cam, the notch and the pedal to be sure that the low is working properly. You should be able to move the pedal about one inch into neutral before it begins to compress the band, then as soon as you reach neutral as you press further it will compress the band. That way you can have the band loose in high, reverse, and neutral. Then when you go into low hold the pedal tight so the band does not slip.

This is what happens when those parts are worn. The pedal goes almost to the floor before it begins to compress the band. Unfortunately, you will need to tighten the band almost completely in order to get the low to work, but the band will drag and overheat the drum leading to the crack.

I replaced the notch, the cam and also bent the pedal back so that I could achieve all of the above and so far have not had a repeat of the problem. That happened about 5 years ago and it has worked fine since then.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Yoder, Iowa City IA. on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 - 11:55 pm:

Another possibility
tr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 12:48 am:

Maybe! IF you have a broken drum or some-such.
Sorry, this is a little bit tongue in cheek but with a bunch of real inserted and it's true. So no disrespect is intended to anyone at all. :-)
Bear with me.

2 years ago, I replaced the main clutch pack in Crappy without pulling the engine...
It's a Sept. '19 engine.
The main road block was the clutch cover. OK, I have a catalog next to me now.
The 3321 driving plate cannot slide back far enough to clear 2 inward bulges in the pan (for two of the transmission cover bolts) so it can lift out.
A 1/4" rearward travel was about all I needed. Transmission cover was already off, obviously. :-)
I borrowed the cordless 3/8 impact from work, loosened the 4 or so front block to pan bolts, removed most of the other block to pan bolts, wrapped a cable around the transmission drums, lifted the entire assembly enough and voila! The driving plate was free to come off.
Perhaps, (PERHAPS!) the clearance could be enough to remove the clutch disk drum from the shaft and then the offending drum if that's the case.
Lift again and then replace.
Thankfully, even with the huge "off brand" fan I have (Chevrolet, Dodge Brother's, Maxwell or who knows), I didn't wreck the radiator but please keep an eye out IF one would ever dare this. I didn't even loosen or remove the outlet water hose but it's a modern 20 year old Gates hose. The clutch disk drum is very groovy but works perfect.
Thoughts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 09:45 am:

I'm still betting (hoping?) on something simple and easy to fix. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan McEachern on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 10:50 am:

Could well be a seized triple gear bushing- that will lock up a transmission like it is in high gear. Reach in and try to move each triple gear- you should feel some backlash and some front to rear movement on each one. Was this a new rebuild or an old running trans?
Good luck.
Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard, Fredericksburg Va on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 10:56 am:

Dan - I hope you are wrong. I went through that scenario a few years ago. I had a hell of a time getting that frozen busing off the pin. Not to mention the other damage.

bush

gr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 11:55 am:

Well, the triple gears are all stuck tight. No movement on any of them. No backlash, no back & forth. That makes me suspect something broke loose and is jammed in the low or reverse gear.

This is a fairly recent rebuild, about four years ago. It's the engine I had to pull last fall because of a defective valve lifter. It seems I'm getting plenty of practice removing and installing engines and transmissions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard, Fredericksburg Va on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 12:07 pm:

Sorry to hear that Steve. Wish I was closer, I'd be glad to come help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 12:20 pm:

I guess I had better wait on pulling this engine. The 1923 engine/transmission rebuild is heading down the home stretch, and I don't want my engine stand tied up with this one when I bring it home. It would be nice to spend less time fixing and more time driving.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 12:38 pm:

If you jack up the rear axle, can you turn the engine with the crank? If so, turn the engine around a little at a time and inspect the drums for cracks. Also look for a blue color of the drums which would indicate they are getting hot. See the color of the low drum in my picture.

If the drums look good all the way around and the engine will turn, you can almost certainly rule out the cracked drum as the cause. However the tight triple gears might indicate the bushings have seized on the shaft or as you say, maybe something got into the gears. I think it would be easier to fix by pulling the engine and transmission as a unit than to try to get the transmission apart while still in the car, and also would be better to check the alignment of the crankcase with the 4th main while you have it apart.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 12:53 pm:

So sorry to hear that it isn't a simple problem. :-(

Yes, definitely wait until the touring car is up and running reliably before you tear into the roadster again.

I for one, will be very interested in the subsequent findings once the teardown starts - please keep us updated when the time comes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Heavner on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 08:32 pm:

If you have a starter motor and Bendix, the Bendix could be stuck or the starter motor shaft is bent. Try loosening the screws holding the starter motor. That should free up the stuck Bendix so you can push the T forward to get it unstuck. Then retighten the starter motor and try starting the T. It may be the starter motor or the Bendix. When my '20 was stuck that is what I had to do to get it started. My problem was a bent starter motor shaft and a bad Bendix. We straightened the shaft and put in a new Bendix. Just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 09:01 pm:

That's a bummer Steve, sorry to hear it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 09:37 pm:

Steve----does your car still have the '16 transmission in it?IIRC,early transmissions had an issue where one of the clutch discs would some how fall out of position and jam.
Someone more familiar with this please comment.I am not where my T library is,tried to search forum no luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 11:28 pm:

This car is a 1915. The Armstrong starter has no ring gear or Bendix. At first I thought Norm's suggestion of clutch disks sticking on lugs with ridges worn in them was most likely. The trouble with that theory is that I'm pretty sure I filed the lugs smooth. But the triple gears having no backlash or other movement has me leaning toward something jammed in the gears. I'll find out when I dig into it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 11:39 pm:

Steve, i wonder if some of that solder you used to balance the drums may have let loose and got into the gears....Just thinking out loud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 11:48 pm:

Mike warned me that might happen with solder on cast iron, so we replaced it with bolts. I suppose one of those could have worked loose too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nevin Gough on Wednesday, July 12, 2017 - 11:59 pm:

Steve, I heard someone saying that one quality we don't teach our children enough, is the quality of resilience. I think anyone who has a Model T HAS to have that quality!

You hear about people that drive a Model T for decades without putting much work into it, and then there are the rest of us.

Anyway, I find it encouraging that you just keep on dealing with these issues as they arise, and that you are happy to share your experiences, both good and bad. We are all learning from them!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, July 13, 2017 - 12:05 am:

Sometimes I wish I wasn't learning quite so much.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Blancard, Fredericksburg Va on Thursday, July 13, 2017 - 06:34 am:

Well said Nevin, I was thinking the exact same thing. I can't express how helpful this forum and guys like Steve are to me. By sharing their trials and tribulations we all learn. Steve - you have been especially helpful by the detailed accounts of your adventures, both good and not so good. These are further enhanced by the excellent photos and videos you share.

I know it's not much consolation in the current situation, but I want you to know that many of us are behind you "virtually", and share your pain.
Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, July 13, 2017 - 07:13 am:

The kid in the picture sure looks like he's having a good time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, July 13, 2017 - 07:25 am:

Yep, and a sharp cookie. His dad was the most remarkable ten-year-old I ever knew, and is now a Boeing engineer. In fact, Johnnie and Trena are both engineers. Also good folks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ROBERT BERGSTADT on Thursday, July 13, 2017 - 02:05 pm:

If it is the triple gears make sure you put the good bushings in this time, Bob


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