Rear Brake Shoe Question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Rear Brake Shoe Question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Snell on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 08:43 am:

What are the considerations for one or the other in choosing a duel or two separate brake shoe set verses the single combined brake shoe set for the emergency brakes? I just recently got a car that has the duel ones and they seem to cause too much drag on the drum and am not sure if they can be adjusted. I am thinking it best to switch to the single combined set. What are your thoughts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 09:34 am:

If for only the fact that the single shoe set is far easier to mess with installing, that's good enough for me! And as I recall, only one spring to worry about breaking too!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Sims--Reed City,Mich. on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 09:43 am:

The 2 piece set has both pieces made the same and the part that the pivot bolt goes thru is too narrow and lets the shoes tilt. the single one piece has this area much wider and supports the shoes better and they will not tilt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Snell on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 04:57 pm:

Thanks Tim and Jim for your thoughts. The pivot bolt for the two piece design has a wedge under the head of the bolt that seems to be for adjustment? Not sure if that is what it is for or not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 07:37 pm:

Daniel, the two piece shoes with the adjustment wedge are not available as replacements as far as I know. The two piece ones that are/were available needed lots of filling/fitting before they would sit in the right way to work properly.
The one piece ones are a much better product and usually fit right from the start.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 07:56 pm:

Agree on the one piece shoes. Before they were available with lining the 2 piece was the only game in town. (personaly i would only use lined shoes back there). Did a number of sets of the 2 piece jobs & developed a bracket to hold them back against the backing plate as one of their problems was they tended to lean outward & hit the drum bolts. I've only seen the wedge type shoes here in pictures but I'd use them in a second with 2 piece shoes as you can adjust the pivot end of the shoe out and has to guarantee greater shoe/drum contact.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 09:35 pm:

Better is better. Cheaper is cheaper. That aside, it boils down to a preference. The last time I installed a set of lined shoes, was just before the "better" ones became available. As such, I have not yet used a set. However, then again, I have never had any trouble getting the other ones to fit and work well. A little trimming, grinder very little, a few minutes with a couple files. Install the springs on the back side of the shoes helps hold them straight. A flat washer or two under the shoes at the pivot bolt also helps, but sometimes is not needed. Some trimming to clear brake drum is likely on the flat washers.
That is my experience with them.
But I hear the better ones truly are better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles Weisgerber- Vancouver WA. on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 10:06 pm:

I have a set of the one piece design on my 25. They were very easy to install. Due to the design the the shoes are held firmly and in perfect alignment. I did not have to modify anything anywhere.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, July 14, 2017 - 10:13 pm:

Exactly. They were designed as one piece and were meant to be used that way. It doesn't mean however that giving them lining wasn't an improvement or that the 2 piece wedge set-up wasn't an improvement also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Snell on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 11:56 pm:

I think it best to replace the two piece one with the single lined ones. Will be contacting Lang's Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Sunday, July 16, 2017 - 09:25 pm:

Daniel, there are two schools of thought on fitting one piece shoes. Some fit them as they are supplied. Others differ, and I am among them. With worn drums, worn cams and wearing linings, the cast iron shoe is asked to bend somewhat, and castings do not like this. It can lead to the shoe breaking, perhaps in an unwanted place. I cut the shoes at the pivot bolt so the two pieces are free to move as they like. Henry provided TWO springs to allow the shoes to be fitted up this way. If you don't like to cut them, you can make a cut part way through at the pivot point. That way, if/when they break, it will not cause any problems and the brakes will work as usual, provided you have fitted two springs.
It is my opinion that both the original T shoes and the new one piece ones were cast in one piece just to enable much simpler machining of the parts.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Snell on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 11:59 am:

Allan,
Have you had a brake shoe break on you before? That is something I never thought of happening. Thanks for your suggestion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, July 18, 2017 - 09:00 am:

Daniel, I have never run one piece original cast iron shoes without linings. I have seen many broken shoes on rear axle assemblies though.
The two piece lined shoes are time consuming to fit. Often the pivot bolt holes/grooves need filing to get the shoes to sit in the right place. They often need to be filed to get them to lay back against the backing plate. Then you may need to fit a washer to the end of the cam to keep that end of the shoe in place. And of course, you need to remember to fit the spring hooks with the open end outwards so the shoe tends to be pulled back onto the backing plate.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, July 18, 2017 - 09:11 am:

Daniel, there is one other check you can do if fitting the new one piece shoes as one piece. When you fit the pivot bolt through the shoes and wind it into the backing plate, as it is nearly home, check that the shoes are not oscillating in and out on the cam. If they are you have a bent pivot bolt.

Also, if the shoes are off the backing plate at the cam end, but they do not oscillate as the bolt is done up, then the backing plate needs to be bent out a bit at the pivot bolt boss. This can be done with a large crescent wrench.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Tuesday, July 18, 2017 - 11:21 am:

I just bought the one-piece shoes from Lang's and put them on as they came. There is not much room in the drums for expansion so I'm not going to worry about the shoes breaking. We'll see.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Snell on Tuesday, July 18, 2017 - 07:15 pm:

Here is a photo of the duel brake shoes with the adjustment wedge. Not a lot of room to allow the wedge to back out more to allow the shoes to come together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Tuesday, July 18, 2017 - 10:55 pm:

If you do install two piece shoes put the springs as Daniel shows in above photo. Putting them that way tends to pull the shoe to the backing plate.
I think that the original Ford one piece shoe did have a groove across the center at the mounting bolt hole. So if they did break it would be there. I am guessing there were so many broken shoes that people assumed that they were meant to be broke when installed. If you do look at some of the older repair info, you will see that was the instructions, to break the shoe at that point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 10:43 am:

Daniel

I'm pretty sure that all of the responses from folks regarding two-piece shoes was for the old two-piece shoes that simply pivot...not what you have. It's good that you posted a picture as this will elicit more responses, for sure.

What you have is a really nifty setup and was not aware that anyone was making them. I wonder if they are an old/original accessory from many years ago. If new, I'd really like to know who's marketing them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry & Sharon Miller, Westminster, CO on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 11:10 am:

Scott,

IF I remember correctly, I saw them in a Mac's catalog.

Good Luck,
Terry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Snell on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 11:30 am:

Scott,

I cannot be certain as to whether they are an accessory or not, as this car was restored over 20 years ago by a gentleman who is now passed. Car has been fitted with a later 1910 Model Rear Axle housing and even later tapered axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 07:18 pm:

Daniel, I did not make the connection that the red car was yours and the shoes are the ones you have.
The problem looks like the linings are too thick. They have been replaced and bolted on rather than the usual rivets. I think they have used whatever linings they could buy, and they are not what they should be.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Snell on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 09:24 pm:

Allan,
Yes I thought it odd that the linings were bolted on rather than riveted. No telling what they did 25 years ago, but the lining is definitely too thick. I am almost at the point of replacing them with the one piece shoe with lining. I understand they fit well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Wednesday, July 19, 2017 - 10:15 pm:

Those are a rather nice accessory brake shoe set - might be Stevens or one other brand - Jay would know for sure or I'll get my sets out of the shop tomorrow and take a couple photos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Snell on Saturday, July 29, 2017 - 02:37 pm:

Steve, wondering if you found anything out about the make of these brake shoes yet?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Saturday, July 29, 2017 - 10:51 pm:

Thanks for the reminder ! I do know where they are !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, July 31, 2017 - 05:43 pm:

Daniel - the adjustable rear hub brakes you have pictured above were manufactured by "Stephens" Co. - I have a NOS set in the original box. I also have a set of "RUSCO" brand in the box and got confused as to which set was adjustable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, July 31, 2017 - 06:08 pm:

Here is old adv. from the early T days, this type of adj. rear shoe. That's a rare accessory these days!




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Snell on Monday, July 31, 2017 - 07:21 pm:

I am not certain it is the same as mine are adjustable only after taking off the wheel to access the slotted head of the pivot bolt. Otherwise it is as described, with thick lining on the shoes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, July 31, 2017 - 08:10 pm:

Let's see a photo of the "castle nut" end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Snell on Monday, July 31, 2017 - 09:06 pm:

Steve, here it is. It is hard to see but the end of the bolt is also slotted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Snell on Monday, July 31, 2017 - 09:11 pm:

I can see how it could be adjusted without taking the wheel off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 12:33 pm:

Thus the request for the photo ! Nice set of accessory hub brakes !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Snell on Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 01:35 pm:

Steve,
Do you have any idea of the date of that advertisement? I have been messing around with T s for many years and never heard of this. I think I will keep them on the car. Thanks for all your input!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 01:49 pm:

I'll pull out my box & look - perhaps the instruction page will be dated.

Maybe Dan T. can give the date from the magazine he copied the original ad out of ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 06:12 pm:

As for adjustment of that shoe, seems you would back off the lock nut on the backing plate, and then turn the end of the bolt with a screwdriver, that is the same as twisting the larger end inside the hub.

Adv. states 'brakes are adjusted here (arrows) without removing wheels'. The original pics in the adv. shows flats on the end of that bolt, likely for a wrench, which provides more leverage.


R. Stevens Co adv., March 1923.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Snell on Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 08:25 pm:

Thanks Dan looks like a keeper if I can make the lining thinner to clear the drag.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 08:44 pm:

:-) I knew from your second post which type of shoes you have.
I've seen ONE other picture here like yours with the shoes on the car.
Very cool accessory brakes Daniel!
I'd love to have a set of those to play with. The one piece shoes are great in my book but these? Wow.
More contact area possible when set up.

(Message edited by Duey_C on August 01, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, August 01, 2017 - 09:21 pm:

I have accessory shoes on all of my cars, and they are all period pieces. I have little faith in reproduction anything. The secret on these is the fit to the drum. I like the two piece type, and the flimsy ones even work too if not messed up. I also install NOS brake cams on my housings, with new brass bushings on any new to me T. Keep in mind, these are parking brakes, and can certainly be used in an emergency if needed. I was on a challenging tour this weekend, and was sure glad I had ORIGINAL Rocky Mountain Brakes. They sure made my journey more enjoyable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tommy coffey on Friday, August 04, 2017 - 12:49 pm:

I'm looking forward to trying mine but I am lying in a hospital with a broken hip. It will be a while yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Olson on Friday, August 04, 2017 - 08:01 pm:

Tommy, here's hoping you heal just right and quickly!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, August 05, 2017 - 10:30 am:

In the advertisement, notice the special bolt that was part of the package.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 03:14 am:

Dan, your advertisements are for two different brands of accessory shoes. The first has pressed steel adjusting wedges like those on Daniel's red car. Those linings have an edge on them like the Ford shoes on the improved cars of 26-7.

The second ad for the Stevens shoes shows the brass adjusting wedge seen a few days ago in another post. These shoes have a re-enforcing ridge added to the centre of the shoe rather than around the edge. Both are quite desirable!!!

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman, New Zealand on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 05:21 am:

Interesting adjustable brakes!

As a note to installing '1 piece' castings, my view is to 'break them at the pivot as well.

I have also found the new repops may not be round! and as such don't fit the drums properly. We have had to bend the shoes to get a round fit.

The problem is that the shoes are made to a diameter smaller than the actual drum diameter. This is probably due to the pressure when the linings are glued on 'compressing' the castings (well it is a 'maybe' reason for the fault):







Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Oak Park MI on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 07:32 am:

I somewhat agree with the possibility of splitting the show at the pivot point makes sense ... however I question the idea that they might have been 'meant' to be split. If that was the case .. wouldn't they have the 2nd extra little 'shoe' cast at the 10 and 2 O'clock positions, like the ones at 4 and 8?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 09:04 am:

Won't argue if some what to break a perfectly good one-piece shoe. But Ford never intended that for its one piece cast shoe.

Its clear in Ford Service that if a shoe happens to break at the fulcrum around the bolt, you don't have to remove it in service as the two springs hold the pieces together. Have seen cast shoes broken apart beyond the boss, and those are loose and can drag a wheel to a stop.

Prefer IMO to keep the shoe intact and in one piece.





Original NOS Ford cast shoe.

Below is multi-part cast shoe that came apart, more pieces that cause trouble. (Steve Jelf photo)



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Oak Park MI on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 10:34 am:

Dan ... quite a helper spring setup there!
I leave the pivot bolt just loose enough to let the shoe rotate, with locktight and cotter pin. Should I not do this? If I 'run it down tight', the show tips down, and doesn't set flush on the brake backer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 10:58 am:

A little background on that last photo Dan posted: The gouged interior of the drum and the boogered up nuts and bolts are a clue to what broke up the brake shoe.


This is what was left of the thrust washers in that rear axle. Rear axle thrust washer failure is a common cause of brake shoe damage, especially on the right side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 07:14 pm:

Dennis, I run the bolt up in the shoe until there is no play, and then tension the castle nut to hold that setting. This will still allow the shoe to rotate/move on the pivot bolt, but will keep it right up to the backing plate.

If tightening the bolt in the shoe cocks the shoe off the backing plate you have either a bent pivot bolt or bent backing plate. If the bolt is bent, as you wind it in the shoe will oscillate against the plate as the bent bolt rotates. If it does not do this, but the shoe is pulled away from the backing plate at the cam end, the the backing plate needs a slight bend outwards at the pivot bolt side. This is easily done with a large crescent wrench.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 07:24 pm:

Dennis

Exactly like Allan posted. That's the way. That anchor bolt is held by cottered castle nut so you can adjust and the nut won't back out.

Plus, add a dab of grease around the anchor bolt to assist pivot, and some grease at the cam lobes too :-) No need in squeaky brakes!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Saylor, Citrus Heights, Ca on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 07:34 pm:

I was on a recent tour where a brake shoe broke apart. The pieces rolling around inside actually sheared off 4 of the six bolts. The car almost lost the entire wheel. Later that day another car had the same thing happen. I believe they were two piece shoes. One was a left side the other was a right side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield; Oak Park MI on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 09:47 pm:

Yep... pivot bolt and cam get a light smear of brake caliper grease. Seems to stick better/longer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Tuesday, August 08, 2017 - 09:47 pm:

The "BIG" problem with the repro 2 pc. lined shoes is they were/are cast to interchange sides whereas the originals were made "Left & Right" so as to eliminate the failure to "capture" the shoe next to the backing plate - the originals hugged the backing plate and the new ones do not - the pivot point is in the middle of the casting !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, August 09, 2017 - 12:43 am:

Dan, the one piece casting for the shoe was simpler to make. The original shoes have ears to accommodate two return springs as in answer 258. That text also states that there is no need to change a shoe that is broken at the pivot point, as it will still give satisfactory service. So it comes down to risk management. I prefer not to have to manage the risk of damage shown when a shoe breaks other than at the pivot bolt. Adrian's hacksaw cut partially through the shoe at the pivot point makes perfect sense to me. If the shoe breaks there at his induced weak point, all will be fine. And that ought to satisfy the one piece club members too.

Allan from down under.


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