It has been a while since I have posted and progress has been slow. But on the up side my 1919 engine is in the final stages of preparation for the rebuild to begin. To that end I am attempting to locate a Canadian or American distributor for hardened valve inserts.
Any assistance or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Check Lang's or Snyder's catalogs. Both should have them.
Unless the valve is going low in the seat you really don't need them. If you do choose to install, might think about only putting them in the exhaust. I am sure many including me have been running modern valves and original seats without much issue.
Dan. I agree with Mark.
A model T is not likely to wear valve seats very much unless you make it into a taxi. Go with one of the larger valve options that have been discussed in previous posts and you should get out into clean deck surface. There is a Chevy exhaust valve option, or a shortened Fordson tractor valve is another option. You also benefit from larger diameter stems which will solve any guide wear problems.
I bought .002". Oversized Chevy V8 exhaust valves for a T engine I am working on today.
I need to ream the guide holes so the oversized valves will fit nicely as the guide holes are worn too much for standard size valves.
What I want to know is when using Chev valves in a T what valve springs are used?
Stock Model T springs with the modern split keepers & spring seat.
I know there are sticklers for originality out there, but would anybody use original two piece Ford valves after installing valve seat inserts? If so, I issue a warning. As the Ford two piece valves are marginal to begin with, the rule of thumb, when installing valve seat inserts, the temperature
in the exhaust valve goes up by about 100 degrees F. This because of the boundary from insert to cylinder head is a hurdle for heat transfer.
Use the Model T valve springs with Chevy keepers.
Thanks Steve T and Ted D.. that makes the job easy and cheap with those popular and easy to get parts.
The Chevrolet valves MAY be a bit short for valve stem to stock tappet clearance, IF I have my head on square. :-)
My son is claiming 1/8" short for one of our projects.
Unless you have adjustable tappets. Then as I understand, it's OK.
Thanks for the catalogue suggestions Snyder's prices are beating the local prices even with the exchange rate.
Save yourself future trouble, don't use the two piece valves, except maybe for a drift punch.
? Up to the 1930's lead as an additive was not used to "lubricate" valves. Till the introduction of lead gasoline/petrol was lead free. So how well did high millage engines, in this case Ford Model T motors fair using lead free fuel from 1908 to 1927? Was there valve/valve seat deterioration?
Even the most cursory visitors to this forum should be well aware of two important cautions repeated over and over:
1. Never use 2 piece valves.
2. Be sure your rear axle has been updated with brass thrust washers.
George. Lacking air filtration and running many miles on the dirt and gravel roads of the day I would venture T's in regular use got overhauls as much for ring and cylinder wear as anything. Also, T valve spring tension is relatively low, owing to the low operating rpm.
Lead of course was used for octane enhancement first, reduced valve seat wear being a side benefit.
Hard seats should be put in all the valve holes.
1. The exhaust valve when it starts its way being ground down below the surface of the block, the deeper it goes, the hotter that cylinder runs. I have seen T and A blocks with the valve tops level with the surface of the block, and they can't understand why they can't fix their heating problem.
2. You want all the valves setting on top of the block so each cylinder has all the same combustion area. If they don't, you can have an out of balance effect, from different amounts of gas to each cylinder.
3. Hard seats have good heat transfer, and should last the whole rebuild, until the next one, if you use good valves. I don't think there is a modern engine out there that doesn't have them.
As far as hard seats, or even cast seats running a 100 degrees hotter, lol, that's a good one.
Herm, Iam with you. I put hard seats in all the holes and bought all new stainless valves from Langs. I also use the stock cup and pin. The chexy locks and retainers are more weight on the valve train. I dont see I dont see how the chexy parts will make your motor run any faster and are harder to install and cost more. Scott
One thing I might say about surfacing the Block.
Make sure who ever you use for a machine shop, has the right kind of surface machine. The older machines have carbide teeth on the surface wheel. To use hard seats, you have to set the hard seats below the surface of the block, or the carbide teeth when touching the hard seat will take all the teeth out of the surfaces wheel. So the hard seats below the surface of the block, after it is machined, is not at all Desired, nor looks good.
The next kind is a surface machine that has a grind stone wheel. These work very well, but they use an oil and water mix to wash away the filings, and cool. Good machines, but messy.
The last is a combination of Carbide, or other material in an insert on a wheel. This does a supper job also and is easy to clean up with a Shop-Vac. The last picture was done with one such machine that started out its life with a grind wheel, and ended up with a surface Button.
Last engine I had rebuilt I had hardened seats installed and valve guides. I wanted to have the job done right for the next generation way down the road who might have to rebuild the car's engine.
In a post earlier on this topic Mr. Herm Kohnke chose to make fun of my comment, which I did not appreciate at all, so I sent him a PM, in which I asked for an apology. Ten days have gone by, and I have not seen anything from Mr. Kohnke yet, and I made it clear to him that If he did not respond, I would post my PM to him on the forum. So here goes:
"Herm, I have a lot o0f respect for you and your work. You obviously know more about Model Ts than I will ever know, but I do not appreciate your mocking my comment with an "lol, that's a good one"! I also do not want to get into a pissing match in a public forum. Although your knowledge is probably broader than mine, don't assume you know everything about everything!
I worked specifically with valves and valve train for over 36 years. I designed, and developed through testing quite a few parts that have endured in millions of engines for a long time. I was there to work out the problems when unleaded gasoline was mandated, and we worked out a method for induction hardening the exhaust seats in cast iron cylinder heads. As the switch to aluminum cylinder heads took place, seat inserts became mandatory, however, we also used seat inserts in some heavy duty cast iron engines.
Yes, a 100 degree increase in the exhaust valve temperature is a good ballpark number. We ran many tests with so called "temperature check valves", both with and without inserts.
A "temperature check valve" is hardened and annealed to a specific hardness. After running in a test engine, the valve is cut lengthwise , and a map of the hardness is developed by a series of hardness checks. The hardness, or lack thereof, indicates at what temperature a specific point in the valve was running.
So when the hardness in a valve, that ran in a head with inserts, indicates that the temperature was significantly higher than in one that ran directly on the head material, we call that scientific proof!
When it comes to my area of experience, I'll go face to face with you on the forum, if you so desire, however, I think a public apology from you is in order!"
And that is all I have to say about this subject for the time being.
Dan, fitting hardened seats and surfacing the block afterwards is the job of a machine shop. Let them source the seats they require for the job. They usually know what they are doing! There are seats of varying diameters and depths for the job, depending on the condition of the block. Let them assess the needs.
Allan from down under.
Mr. Sand, I would take hard seats on all valve holes, over valves ground down in the block any day, rather then uneven amounts of gas to each cylinder because of different valve heights, and uneven compression, making it also out of balance.
The coolest that a valve will run is when it is setting on the top surface of the block, and that is fact.
Even if it would run a 100 degrees warmer, it is a Big Nothing Burger!
If valve seats are installed correctly, you have all kinds of heat transfer, and both valve and seat should last the life of the motor.
When a valve and seat go bad, if hard seats and S.S. valves were not used, it is always the valve that goes first, and then it will take the seat with it.
I was trying to make a point about not being a stickler for originality, and install Ford 2-piece valves with seat inserts. As we know, these valves are shaky to begin with, and an increase in temperature would no doubt worsen the situation. I fully agree that the coolest valve will be the one that runs with the most direct path for the heat to get to water. I do not know what alloy the original Ford valves were made of, and my guess is that modern stainless, especially the austenitic ones, are far superior, so you are correct, for such valves a 100 degree increase would be a "Big Nothing Burger".
Yes, I agree Mr. Sand, the original two piece valve should never be used. The stem is steel and the head is cast iron.
They burn very easy and then take the seat with it. In the old days it has been stated that 3 months is about as long as you could go with out a valve grind, especially running lean.