Low shell should fit a low radiator

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: Low shell should fit a low radiator
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 01:08 pm:

Maybe I tired ... can't seem to figure this out. Have a new low radiator and an old low radiator shell. The shell is bigger than the radiator by sbout a 1/2" even though the opening (see picture) is 17".

Measurement


Rad shell


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 01:25 pm:

The measurement of the shell is right on. The radiator itself seems to be short. Am I looking at that picture right? Are your fenders on? They go on before the radiator, but I don't think that would make up the difference.

Who made your radiator? It is possible that radiator is either for a different year car or it was not made correctly.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 01:26 pm:

The measurement of the shell is right on. The radiator itself seems to be short. Am I looking at that picture right? Are your fenders on? They go on before the radiator, but I don't think that would make up the difference. Does the hood fit correctly to the shell or does the front of the hood seem too high? Did you have that shell on your old radiator and how did it fit before?

Who made your radiator? It is possible that radiator is either for a different year car or it was not made correctly.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 02:17 pm:


Are your mounting springs and thimbles in the order shown in this picture? If not, this might help.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 02:34 pm:

Doesn't appear to be a Ford top tank, looks like an aftermarket radiator with a different tank, top support bracket, and inlet. It fits and works, but the filler neck is shorter coming through the shell.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 02:40 pm:

Looks like the shell is sitting on a lower thimble.
The radiator should be mounted on a leather pad and the shell right down on it like in the images Norm posted.

: ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 03:06 pm:

Note that there are two different mounting hole diameters: early vs late.

The earlier radiator shells have smaller holes (I believe 3/8") that are the same diameter as the studs. You cannot use thimbles and springs to mount those shells. You must mount the shell as shown in the upper half of the drawing. NOTE: the earlier radiator mounting brackets also had smaller holes. However, I don't believe any of the reproduction radiators are constructed in this manner so you will have to make the holes smaller by setting a washer in each hole - you might want to weld them in place (hope this makes sense).

The later shells that use the thimbles have much larger mounting holes. The radiator brackets also have larger holes to accept the thimbles.

See this thread:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/232369.html

(Message edited by Erik_johnson on July 15, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 03:08 pm:

The thimbles and other hardware are correct. The shell is bottomed out on the radiator flange and the upper spring is underneath the radiator flange as usual. Yes, the tank is odd. Its a brand new Berg radiator.

My T is a '23 ... had a low aftermarket honeycomb radiator, low hood and a low Ford shell when I bought it. Firewall is a low metal type. Seems like everything I do with this project is out of the ordinary for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 03:19 pm:

I wonder of the support/bracket was installed in the correct position when the core was assembled? Maybe it should be located a few fin rows lower? That would raise the core, tank and neck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 04:41 pm:

Yes, it is strange. It seems like the upper tank is the wrong shape. The shoulders of the upper tank touch the inside of the shell .. but then the top of the tank is too low. Could it be a different upper tank used for hot rods or some other application? Sent an email to the maker. Waiting to hear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 05:35 pm:

Try putting the caps and nuts on, then draw it down to see where it really sits. The thimbles the come up thru the holes in the shell and radiator support don't look like they coming up thru like they should.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 06:20 pm:

Here is a picture of the mounting with the upper thimble removed. Shell is on the radiator support bracket as it should be. Bracket is on the lower thimble ... which sits on the upper spring.


Nut


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 06:44 pm:

The radiator is to low on the frame.The spring for the later low cowl cars will move the radiator about 1/4 or 5/16th higher depending on how much you tighten down the mounting bolts.
I have a 1919 and 1921 low cowl T's. Neither one of the radiators fit that close or nearly flush on the frame.
If you think there is still an issue PLEASE contact the maker or vendor and give him a chance to respond.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 07:23 pm:

Maybe this picture isn't clear enough for you to see what I'm talking about. The radiator is actually sitting up high enough off the frame with the spring underneath. That's not the problem. It's the shell on the radiator that's the problem. That shell is totally down all the way, in contact with the radiator at the thimble ... but too low at the filler neck. It doesn't make any difference what happens between the radiator and the frame.

I'm not laying blame ... just trying to figure out the problem and thought someone here might have an answer. I don't get angry very often ... just like problem solving.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 07:50 pm:

Suggest you remove the radiator and shell from the car.

You should be able to slip the shell completely on the radiator and the neck should protrude almost completely through the shell.

If it doesn't fit correctly off the car, then you know it's either the radiator or the shell.

(Message edited by Erik_johnson on July 15, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 08:12 pm:

Read the very first sentence in this post about the neck not fitting correctly - do not know if he means it does not protrude far enough like a stock radiator.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/136428.html?1271955143

Also - the Berg's radiator should be considered aftermarket because it is not designed like a stock factory radiator. It is what it is so maybe the neck barely protruding through the shell is a quirk the you have to live with…….


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, July 15, 2017 - 09:18 pm:

Any history for the radiator? There are a couple things amiss about it.
One, the core appears to be a bit short itself. The shell doesn't quite cover it the way it should. I think part of that can be corrected by removing the shell from the radiator and squaring off the lower bracket and flattening the flange that covers the radiator bracket that sets on the frame. I don't know how bad the other side is? But the one in your picture should buy you a good 1/4 inch. For the one side.
The radiator tank is an after-market variety. Maybe I missed it? Is it a Berg's? I have seen a few old honeycomb radiators with top tanks and necks similar to yours. A few of them have been a bit shy in upper tank volume. One a few years ago, I rigged up a way to pull the upper neck up by stretching the area around the neck. I gained about a quarter inch that way without harming the radiator.
I think those two things would get a good looking fit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darryl Bobzin on Sunday, July 16, 2017 - 05:29 pm:

The mounting hardware has no bearing on his problem. The flange of the shell is sitting on the flange of the radiator. Problem is the radiator is too short. I hope you bought this from Bergs so you can call them to let them know about it. The correct mounting hardware will effect your hood fit when you get to that point though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, July 16, 2017 - 06:41 pm:

It is true that the mounting hardware has no bearing on the problem but only as long as the hardware is installed in the correct order.

The inner thimble should be protruding much higher than shown even before you install the outer thimble and nut and start tightening.

I see a big gap between the the shell and the and the radiator bracket - I have circled the gap in the photo below. The radiator shell should rest directly on the bracket, not hover above it. It looks like the side panel of the radiator core is not attached properly - it should be attached further down along the core.

Also below are two photos of a Berg's radiator purchased by Steve Jelf.

Note the gap circled in red between the radiator shell and bracket - that gap should not be there.

1


2


3


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, July 16, 2017 - 06:50 pm:

Also - note in the above photos of Steve Jelf's then brand new radiator that the bottom of the side panel is flush with the radiator reinforcement strap that goes the width of the core.

The same cannot be said of Mark Osterman's radiator.

The mounting brackets of the Berg's radiator consist of two halves - the upper half which appears to be part of the side panel and a lower half which continues down to the bottom.

On Steve's radiator, those two halves appear to touch each other along the horizontal plane. On Mark's radiator, they do not touch so there is a gap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darryl Bobzin on Sunday, July 16, 2017 - 07:53 pm:

I agree with Erik. I would work on the shell fitting the radiator off the car. Determine what is keeping the shell from fitting down on the radiator. The mounting ears on the shell may need a little straightening. If the radiator is not made correctly, I would be calling Berg's


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Sunday, July 16, 2017 - 10:15 pm:

Erik, The shell is down further than it looks from that photograph. But it is also as far as it will go as it's resting on the shoulder of the upper tank. See the picture below. It can't go fown any more.


Shell

The comparison of a vintage low tank and the modern one might be the "ah-ha" we need. The top tank is simply the wrong shape. It's actually lower than a low radiator.

Tank

Modern tank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, July 16, 2017 - 10:45 pm:

I hope you got the radiator from a reputable dealer who will make things right for you. The manufacturer should be informed of the misfit so that they can correct it in the future. If they get the reputation for making radiators which do not fit, they will not be getting much business in the future.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, July 16, 2017 - 11:38 pm:

Even though it is an aftermarket design with "non-stock" tank geometry, in order to make a direct comparison of the Berg's radiator to a stock, factory radiator, I think the height measurements should be made from a horizontal line between the brackets to the following:

- bottom of the tank
- top of the tank
- top of the filler neck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 09:53 am:

Looks like the wrong hardware to me. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 10:16 am:

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Plank in Humboldt, TN on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 10:27 am:

I have two Berg's radiators. The top tank height measures 4" on both of them, where Mark's measures only 3-1/2".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 12:31 pm:

Did I miss something? I don't see where Mark mentioned he has a Berg's radiator. I run 3 Berg's and am getting ready to install my 4th - have never had a fit issue with any of them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 12:37 pm:

OK - I DID miss it. He did say it is a new Berg's. Now the eyesight is going as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 12:42 pm:

I must have missed it, what did Berg's have to say about this situation? Have they offered to exchange the radiator for another one?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 04:28 pm:

Check with Gery Berg...he is a fair and square guy.

I will say that I tried to mount a low Bergs radiator as a replacement for a honeycomb and tried a pad to thimble conversion at the same time. It just didn't come together. Went back to pad mount...bada bing bada boom went together fine in like 2 minutes! Your experience may vary.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 04:37 pm:

pic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 04:42 pm:

pic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 06:15 pm:

I have Bergs and it's fits perfectly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 08:50 pm:

Mark, I have heard nothing but praise for the Berg's radiators. I went with a Brassworks item because I did not like the Bergs top tank/outlet combination.

Given their good ratings on this forum, I was surprised with the workmanship shown on your photo of the top left corner, taken from the rear. Nothing seems to go together as I would expect from a quality product. There appears to be pop rivets used, the tank has been cut and tucked on the back side, the panels overlap and nothing lines up as it should. Could your radiator have been re-worked by some one? I suggest Berg's be contacted. This does not ring true with their reputation.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Monday, July 17, 2017 - 10:27 pm:

Here is the news. I bought the radiator from Gery Bergbower ... he originally delivered it to me while driving through Rochester. So, I contacted Gery and sent him pictures. He is going to send me another radiator. I'll bring the other one back to him at Hershey this year. Has been interesting and we still don't really know about the cause of the problem. A very nice guy.

I appreciate the help. It is funny how many people suggested that the mounting bolts and thimble assembly might be the problem even after my posting the upper tank comparison pictures and the picture of how the Ford low radiator shell makes contact on the shoulder of the radiator ... so it can't go any further down. It's important to read the original and additional posts so that the right advice isn't offered ... for the wrong problem. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Tuesday, July 18, 2017 - 08:31 am:

I knew this was exactly how this was going to turn out. Gery Bergbower is a great guy - a stand-up businessman with a superb product. There is no one else I would purchase a radiator from (which is why, to date, I've bought 4 Model T and 1 Model A radiator from Berg's). A radiator is no small investment and you want to be comfortable with the vendor standing behind the product without a lot of hassle and drama before you expend that sort of cash. That is NEVER an issue with Berg's - Gery understands customer service and values the T community.

(Message edited by Conversiont on July 18, 2017)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, July 18, 2017 - 10:02 am:

I hope you explained the issue with the height of the top tank to Gery so that he doesn't send you an exact duplicate of the too-short one you have now. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Boothroyd, Victoria, B.C. on Tuesday, July 18, 2017 - 03:27 pm:

I received my Bergs rad a couple of weeks ago and it fits like a glove.

Regards,

Steve B


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Ressijac on Tuesday, July 18, 2017 - 04:34 pm:

I received my Berg last Friday and have noticed the same issue as Mark. I reached out to Gery, being a stand-up operation he got right back to me.

Hi Rick,
This was my reply to Mark O. concerning the low radiator problem, and the same applies to you, I can refund yours or swap it out and try to get a better fit.

I do have several low shells and they are all the same, your radiator is too short at the top tank, as you can see the radiator is flat on top and I do that for a reason, it gives the filler neck a nice landing to be attached to, but it also causes the neck to be a bit low after the shell is installed, actually I thought this might be a good thing because it keeps the shell from riding down hard on the new necks. The void could be filled with a small strip of leather or something. As you know it's not a problem with high T radiators because they have mounting brackets on the side plates that hold the shell in place, the lows just hang there in place and all the old well used radiators I've seen have a serious groove worn in the filler, many are cut all the way through. Yours however is extreme and I will get one that fits better on the way next week. Sorry about this, I fit check each new radiator with an original but I just didn't catch that was that low.
Regards,
Gery

He builds a great radiator, with even better service. Thanks Gery


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Wednesday, August 02, 2017 - 07:45 am:

I received the replacement radiator from Gery and it fits perfectly. Evidently Fed Ex must have dropped the box at some point during shipping which caused a slight separation of the cast rod bracket to the upper tank, but the rivets held and I don't think there is any fit or leaking problem. I'll fill it with a little JB Weld and paint it.


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