now that I have this (?)1917 sportabout with (according to the engine code) a 1922 engine and rf wheel is 21" wood felloe, lf 21" solid rim demountable rears are 21" split rim. most of it remains (cowl lamps, headlights and buckets, all body parts) From what I have deciphered if it is a 1917 it should have 30" front and 301/2 rear... where can I find more to Identify my new friend
Post a few pix...generally, within 24 hours you'll know 99% of what you have. Lol
The more Pic's you post the more the people here can tell you. Pictures need to be resized to under 200kb to post them.
The Model T Detectives can't properly sleuth without images ....
Welcome to the forum.
Be aware that there is a file size limit of 250K per picture, but there is no practical limit to the number of pictures per post.
If the file size of a picture is over 250K, you can resize it using the program of your choice or Paint.
Lots of T folks in San Antonio--hopefully some will see your post and contact you. Regards.
It sounds like what's called a Johnny Cash car, a parts salad. After 100 years a lot of Model T's have achieved that status. One of my ongoing projects is going through my 1915 replacing wrong parts with right ones. As Dude Lester says in Tobacco Road, "It don't hurt the runnin' of it none."
As the other guys have said, post a bunch of pictures and you'll soon find out what you have, mostly.
will post some tomorrow thanks for the welcome
Was not sure what to do when I got this lil jewel but it was a take the pair or move on with a 1930 tudor sedan as the other half. As we were steering the T from the backyard a spry lil woman walked up and asked what year and added she was born in 1917..I almost fell on my face... we stopped for a break and chat...the lil car tugged me with that meeting and by the time I watched her behind me on the trailer back to San Antonio I was making plans for the revival
Sounds like the hook has been set.
Sounds like you have been bit by the bug! Welcome to the affliction!
Welcome to the forum, hobby, and affliction. As others have said, photos help a lot. Also having someone local take a look at what you have can save you a lot of time. I.e. you post a photo and we often ask what is to the right of where the photo stops as that helps date the item etc.
The online encyclopedia has some information about most of the Ts. It starts at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/intro.htm
The two disc CD version of the encyclopedia has a lot more information and many additional photos to help you be able to identify what is what on the cars. To order a copy of the CD version please see Steve Jelf's web page at: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html and look down on the right for phone, email etc. of where to order a copy. It contains updated information that was discovered after the hard copy was printed.
I also encourage folks to read the safety cautions related to their new Ford. Please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/576808.html Like the horse it replaced the T and the horse both have some known safety issues that if you are aware of them, you won't get bitten by them or kicked by them.
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Welcome to the forum, Rocky. We might be kin. There aren't too many of us who spell Rhoads correctly.
Welcome to the forum!! Great source of real knowledge. Tim
Add my welcome too Rocky. I'm about 65-70 miles NE of you in northern Caldwell county and will be glad to help if I can. Google T Fords of Texas - that's the SA club. Hugh Hemphill is the president and webmaster and Daniel Bratcher operates an informal T repair facility there....good luck
yes Jeff I have heard that myself...lots of pics how do I size them? I am not a whiz at this
Most important is to have the pictures/images 250kb or less. I shoot for 240kb or less -- that way if I am 9 over it still works easily.
Some postings on resizing photos:
Note the older posting say below 200kb size, but they increased it to 250kb since then.
If you right click and save a photo that is already posted -- you can practice posting that. It is already under 250kb.
Note you want to have it large enough to see details or at least to let folks zoom in and see details.
You will figure it out soon. It takes a little longer than some things but it should not be an hour long project. If you have a child or grandchild they can usually show you and coach you through it.
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What is this "right click" of which you speak?
okay here goes
all the parts are there ...just took the cowls and headlights to a safer place
in the shadows to the right is the 30'tudor(the other half of the deal)
Looks beautiful to me.
Well with only one (1) picture it does look like a bitsa car but it is already saying please fix me so I can show you a good time
Bitsa ? Maybe mostly a '22, wheels changed out, not uncommon.
The front spring perches on your car were used 1909-mid 1919 and the radius rod (wish bone) under the axle was started in mid 1919 and continued to 1927. Your car's axle has both.
APR 14, 1919 Acc. 235, Box 39, #385, Ford Archives
"From this date two distinct designs of front radius rods, together with front spring perches, right and left, one on the Model T and the other on Model TT.
"The Model TT design will be assembled beneath the axle, instead of above the axle through the spring perch as heretofore.
"Although it would be possible to use the Model T design on the Model TT, we request this be resorted to only in case of a shortage serious enough to threaten loss of production."
APR 14, 1919 Acc. 78, #385, Ford Archives
New radius rod used at first on the TT chassis. Roller bearings at first on the TT and on the closed cars.
Front fenders are 1917-1922 model year style
Windshield to body brackets are mid 1917-1922 model year style
Front spring/engine mount is the earlier style with two u-bolts – that was used mid-1909 and discontinued in early 1921 ref: page 324 of Bruce McCalley’s book.
It has the crank used 1914-mid 1922 ref page 324 of Bruce McCalley’s book “Model T Ford.”
Other items to look for or to post photos of:
What type of running board brackets does it have forged or the later pressed steel version?
Where is the rear axle filler plug? About even with the rear axle or about 1 3/4 inch below it?
Where the drive shaft bolts onto the rear axle - can you see the shaft of the bolts or are they hidden by a casting?
Does the car have a battery carrier installed and if so is it bolted into the frame or riveted?
It there a body number and date on the body wood or tag? Is there a letter stamped in the heel board of the front seat? Please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html for where to look.
Does it have a round or oval gas tank?
Does it have top support irons coming down from the top of the front seat back rest or out through a hole in the side of the curved panel going around the seat?
Good photos of many items can help answer those and other questions that would help date the various parts and let you know if they would fit with a 1917 or other year better.
Again, welcome to the forum.
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have no Idea how I got that one photo resized but after 2 ours last night and no luck I will answer Hap 1915's Questions and try again tomorrow..motor number 5667563..forged running board brackets..rear axle filler below the axle..the battery box is on the left fender and made of wood and seems homade the rest of the running board has what appears to be a tool or storage boxthat is bolted on..no body numbers at this time..top supports on sides of body near rear of door ..throwing in the resize towel and begging jeff(22 years old)for help tomorrow(this will cost me LOL)
"Looks beautiful to me"
What Vern said above from me too.
Hehehe, hopefully Jeff will click a couple of clicks and get us fixed up with your pics.
Don't just have him resize your pictures. Have him teach you (not just show you) how to do it.
oh that's the plan I will figure out what I did right one time. Got some sleep and found out that I had overwritten the file 3 times with all the resized pics I think I have to learn "the making of a new file LOL
My suggestion, when you get resizing sorted out, is to get the file size as high as you can without going over the 250 KB limit.
The exception would be when 250 KB makes the picture too tall to fit the screen without scrolling. For that I have another limit: 720 pixels high, even if it makes the file size well under 250 KB.
see that fellow Steve Jelf, you will instantly know him tape measure in his "Bib-overalls. He keeps it with him to measure the length of a "T" to see if it fit storage area.
Also he is a wealth of information. So be nice to him and the rest is history.
That's a good selection of pictures clearly showing details which folks will be able to identify by years. I have to go, so if I comment it will have to be later. One photo that doesn't help a lot is the serial number, which is mostly unreadable in the picture. Maybe you could get the number with side lighting or a rubbing. This may be a case where you can make out the details better without a camera than with.
Missing valve covers,other than that looks fairly complete. When you start taking it apart be sure to take plenty of pictures and catalogue them as a memory enhancer. Cool Car! good luck.
5667563 is the engine code...from the history section that would have been assembled for use in jan 2017
oops jan 1922
OK boys n girls...I'll go out on a limb here to "poke" for folks to tell me where I am off....
That's a 22 Non-starter Touring that has The optional demountable wheel package? Lots of weathering, maybe a touch of chicken coop disease. The back of the Touring has been removed.
I know the 22's are always a bit ?????, but from what I see, I'll go with my gut on this one
Congratulations, you have a cut off touring. It looks similar to a runabout/roadster -- but the panels are different. Some of the nicest people I know have a cut off touring (uh-oh -- that may be self serving....).
Anyway the body on your car started life as a touring car. The hole for the starter switch in the front seat heel panel would make it a 1919 or later touring car. The bracket on the side of the touring car for the top to be mounted to (just behind the door opening and the false door opening) make it a 1922 or earlier touring car.
The round gas tank makes it 1920 or earlier body.
Note if it is an oval gas tank and I'm seeing it wrong then it is a mid-1920s-1922 body. Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/F-H.htm#ft1
Great start on a T -- ok -- a bit of a challenge -- but you won't know how lucky one way or the other until you start investigating. My Dad purchased a T out of the junk yard once for $50. It had a rebuilt engine! Usually I am not that lucky.
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what a difference a day makes...looks like I have a date in the future with metal, hammer and bag to fill those rear outside corners with the turtle deck I found from a 23-25. I will get some close ups of the"yep that'll do for now" repairs
The rear axle is a 1926-1927 large brake drum rear axle. It fits and functions fine and has a much better parking brake/emergency brake. Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/P-R.htm#rax1 see 1926-27.
Not I do NOT see the normal Ford battery carrier that would be on the passenger side behind the front seat. I would think I should be able to see that from the same photo above. Please check to see if your frame has any indications that a metal frame to hold the battery was ever there.
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Yes Hap it is a round tank, and even if the engine has been transplanted, it has been waiting around for one more chance at the open road....well maybe that might be a bridge to far...pop and crackle works for now..will keep you posted and will look forward to more info on the lil touring T
Michael, that is so much more than I started out with.
And there is not a thing wrong with a T that is a mélange of different eras.Most are.
Get it operational the way it is.Trying to make that correct for a particular year will just push the day you can enjoy. It further away.
I see one thing that concerns me.
As pointed out above, that has the early spring perches with the late radius rod,aka wishbone.
There are not enough threads on the bottom of the early perches to SAFELY attach the late style wishbone.
In fact,I don't see a castle but on the passenger's side.Likely welded on.Potentially very dangerous.
Late style front units complete are plentiful and cheap. You might even find someone nearby that wants early perches and would trade you.
Under no circumstances should a newbie attempt to change perches.
Get a whole different below the axle wishbone front unit.
Newbie to the T. Have been restoring 30's thru 50's for a time this is such a joy to see how they did things and then to think of where it has gone in 100yrs. I will definatly get those photos of the" Yep That'll do fer a bit" repairs you will hold your sides, Very unique ways to use bailing wire and nails and concern will turn to disbelief
lower leaf on rear spring is broken also. Tomorrow is build a firewall, rebuild the coil box and get jeff to hold the Mag wires while I turn the crank HE HE.Saturday it's all hands on deck to move the 54 coupe deville towards the finish line
As Jim suggested, there are somethings that are easier than others to tackle. And with help and the proper tools things are not always that hard to do. And yes swapping axles complete with spring perches is one way to do it. And there are other ways to remove the perches etc. But they are usually difficult to remove.
My internet connection is spotty so I will stop here.
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And,correct me if l am wrong,but I believe that has the scarce non starter car headlight switch/horn button.
If you needed one of these before the internet, you had about the same chance of finding a pearl in a bowl of Campbell's Oyster Stew.
I have found three pearls,and about the same number of those horn buttons.
The pearls were the same shape,too.Rough.
Donnie Brown did a thread on a non-starter '26 that he found:
Yes, the car has the combination horn & light switch on the steering column.
Note the car appears to have the wide arm rest used 1917-1921ish on the tourings (a little later on the runabouts). Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1921.htm
The older style body continued for a time before the new one became standard, perhaps into 1921. (Some sources even say late 1921.) The runabout continued in the earlier style until late 1922 (1923 cars).
Note when the body is mounted or removed, the firewall stays with the car. I believe the metal floor board risers indicate a later rather than earlier car. If it has a year date with the body number that will help to date the body.
Right now I'm guessing you have more 1921 year range parts than any other range.
Please look on the frame front cross member. Does it have a Ford scrip on it?
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after some cleaning the motor numbers 3657553(dec 1919?)for Hap the body number is either a B or 8 followed by 255499-20 and the block casting reads 5 10 9 with the numbers 4 43 to the left and lower than the stamped engine number. am off to get some close shots of areas that you all have questions about and we cannot find any ford script on the crossmember
When you do the engine work you should move that nail down below the valve spring. The rear spring needs new wire.
so what is the possibility of finding a proper rear half of this multi year touring
well that must have been a stupid question. found a set of 21" demountables with good tires and tubes looks like they were refurbished and kept very well. I don't know if anyone needs the 2 split rims, 1 clencher and 1 wood felloe clincher all need to be refurbished. The 30 tudor seems to have a lot in common although the addition of a heater was a surprise it also seems to have a optional tow hitch that was engineered to clamp on the rear bumper. took some measurements and found that the panoramic sunroof from a 2013 Cadillac SRX will fit nicely in the hole in the top... does that offend anyone?
I see nothing that a little MMO, waterpump, and elbow grease won't fix.
Great vehicle to start a restoration
Touring back halves come up, but pretty infrequently. Put a wanted ad in the classified section, maybe somebody will step forward.
will do. Just sent a message to san Antonio t club. Waiting for the giants of the group to get back with a little more info on what I really have ..seems to be something from 19 to 22 range
Repairing that "Hole in the top" on a model A is a really straight-forward project, and the body needs to be able to flex up there, That's why they kept that "soft-center" design until the "all metal" bodies came along. The A tudor top wood is readily available, and usually cheaper than you can cut the wood yourself. The Fordbarn site has lots of folks who can help you, and there's a few here that know As too.
You shared the body number is:
B or 8 followed by 255499-20
That is a typical "Beaudett" also spelled "Beaudette" and referred to as Pontiac in most Ford USA records body number configuration. That would be a "B" at the beginning. And the "20" at the end indicate it was produced sometime during 1920 (or that the right front floorboard riser was swapped out with a floorboard riser from a Beaudett body that was produced in 1920).
So if that part was not replaced the body was produced in 1920 (and technically could have been installed on a 1921 chassis as the 1921 model year began around Aug 1921). Ref:
When you have a chance, please let me know what numbers go where on the casting date. You listed 5 10 9 . Below is a photo and labels from Phil Mino (Thank you Phil!)
Please let us know which numbers are at which positions.
will add it in the morning
Hap her is the photo you requested
I have a lot of the parts you need in New Braunfels. Make a list and give me a call (512) 376-4180. I even sold a touring back half to a fellow in Seguin that now wants to sell it. george
Disclaimer -- this is for USA produced bodies.
Yet another variation on the casting date. But in this case 5 10 19 for May 10, 1919. Or at least that is the way it looks to me.
Note the very center is not a number but rather the imprint of the slotted screw that holds the casting date disc to the mold.
For George - I believe the proper rear tub for his 1920 Beaudett body would have the 5 panels (1915-1920ish). It would also have a metal seat frame to match the front seat metal seat frame. Some 1919-20 tourings had a wooden seat frame after the style used in 1914 and some 1915 cars. For USA produced bodies, I do not know of a body maker that had both a wood seat frame and a metal seat frame in the same touring body. I do know that was a common set up for Canadian cars for a few years as they transitioned from wood for both seat frames to wood in the rear and metal in the front seat frame. See: for a comparison of metal versus wood rear seat frame:
See: for a comparison of metal versus wood front seat frame:
See: for the price list of parts 1918-1919 wood seat frames (note -- NOT all body makers switched back to the wooden seat frames during this time period -- but some did. I suspect Fisher is one that did. Our engine number is listed on the Dec 13, 1917 engine logs for our 1918 parts car touring named Donor (bummer of a name -- we know what is likely to happen to that car) has the wood seat frames. But our mostly original Beaudett bodied May 1918 touring has the metal seat frames.
Note, even the later 3 piece rear tub will function on the earlier 1915-1920ish front body. But the arm rest are wide on the earlier style and thinner on the later style. The body beads do not line up exactly the same either. The top rest is supported differently etc. See photos below for comparison of the two. I couldn't find the photos of the two different styles mated together -- they are on the forum but I didn't locate them this time. Non-T folks will not know but if you are going to the trouble to repair it -- I would suggest obtain the 1917-1920ish 5 piece rear seat tub. In the mean time a pickup bed works great.
Photos of the 1921ish-25 rear seat tub:
Above: note some 1915s and possibly even some 1916 did not have the carriage bolt in the side. The Beaudett bodies continued the wood seat frames well into 1915 and from memory (not as good as written notes) possibly into 1916. Note when wood seat frames were reintroduced in some production during 1918-1919 they also kept the carriage bolt in the side of the panel.)
Above the very late 1916 to 1920ish had the wide arm rest with the metal end cap.
The 1921ish to 1925 had the narrow arm rest shown above.
Note, looking at the serial number, I suspect it has been altered in the past. I had a Model A 1928-31 that had those punch marks to cover up a previous number. With the 5,667,563 you read it would be listed on the Jan 24, 1922 engine assembly log. But I think that first digit may be a "3" instead. In that case it would have been entered on the Jan 5, 1919 engine log and could have been used in a 1920 bodied touring.
Of course some of the other areas are even harder to read so you may never know for sure.
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thanks Hap, after some etching work we have the engine Number as 3657553 which as you said might be a match with the body code of B 255499-20 as a 1920 beaudette touring. Thanks to all. I feel good about titling her as a 1920. I will continue the work to get her fired and report back
Sounds like progress is being made, congratulations on a nice find!
Your welcome! I'm glad the pieces are coming together for you. But as others often point out a running driving T that has mixed parts is usually more fun than a waiting for the correct part to get on the road T.
(Note the exception to that is when you have a driver so you can take your time on the other one.)
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That's the plan, Picked up a 23-25 turtle deck(no key but will do fine to hold the fenders apart for now)