About a week ago I noticed an advert in the classifieds for a 1909-10 Model T for sale or part out. After a few emails (and my daughters blessing) I went with a friend to look at the car. It was stored at the home of Kim Dobbins, the well known expert on these early cars. Bruce made several references to Kim in the Encyclopedia on the 1908-10 sections.
After looking it over, I decided I could bring it back to life, maybe not to the very highest standards but more than enough to satisfy me.
This is what the car looked like:
This was is what we found, its solid and most of the car is still there.
I decided to go for it..... Bruce and I had a little haggle and I believe we both came away winners. I get an early car and Bruce sees it go to someone who will not part it out, but make an honest effort to restore it to it's former glory.
This is the date stamping on the end of the transmission shaft, clearly 9 30 09.
One thing aroused my curiosity, the threaded home on the front left side of the block. According to Kim, it appeared during 1909 and disappeared early in 1910 without any currently known reason.
Several forum members offered to supply me with a later block correcting this obvious defect, I have not taken anyone up on this generous offer to date. Another member showed a picture of what can be achieved, Wow.
So that is how this adventure got started, I'll attempt to update as I move along with progress (or lack of it) over the next few months...
I'm so pleased this car has been saved from being parted out
(In Australia we say wrecked) but is going to be restored.
Great outcome even though I would have loved a few of them bits!!!
Alan in Western Australia
Thanks for the update.
Why does this always happens on the wrong side of the ocean????
Good luck Tony and enjoy it.
I would call that threaded hole a mysterious curiosity, not a defect. Ford put it there for a reason, even if we don't know what that was. I consider a 1910 having its original engine a definite plus.
I wonder what or where the hole lines up with on the inside of the block? I also wonder if this block casting has been seen before on others? Bud.
My recent purchase of a January, 1910 touring has that same hole in the front.
Out side oil line ? Wonderful car, looking forward to updates.
The extra hole in the side of the block makes this T a real unique original in my mind. I cant believe why this would be considered a defect.
When a so called defect happens in the coin collecting world the defect raises the value a great amount.
Why hasn't this happened in the world of Model T's.
Defect? Do your homework!
My bet is that Tony was trying to make a joke.
I removed the body, now hanging on Lee Pierces Sky Hook, I'll post some pictures of all the stuff hanging around the barn. I want to get to back to the chassis and think about the body. I have started to remove the fenders and clean off the accumulated dust. Then I'll put them in the roof of the barn so they don't get damaged. They are in excellent condition, much too good for 108 years old, so I think they are excellent reproductions, probably 20+ years old.
The chassis as of this morning:
The chassis looks very little different from that of the 1914 Town Car, the major immediate difference being the rear fender irons.
The 1910 parts book shows a long breather pipe with a cap on that side, but not having seen one, I can't tell if it connected to that hole? but looks to emanate from that spot.
Early blocks have been discussed many times on this forum. A lot is still not known about the what, when, where, and why-for of these things. I don't claim to be an expert on them. I would like to see more discussions with some serious input by several people that I know do know a lot more than I do. I have learned a lot from people like Royce, Kim Dobbins, Charlie S, Richard G, Rob H, and many others.
A couple threads I have bookmarked in the past.
This first one has a lot of great information by Royce and others. Particular note is Royce's speculation at 4/24 10:21 pm. I have yet to see a better idea for what this extra boss may have been for. Or as Royce says, "Or not".
LBJ's T. See David Martin's question 2/20 9:59 am, followed by Royce's answer specific to this block detail. Lots more about blocks, and this specific car also:
About valve lifters:
Even more discussions are linked within these links.
What I find very interesting, is that the earliest blocks had the oil breather/filler in about this location. When the breather went away, apparently, so did all block traces of it. There were other major changes to the block that required totally new molds and patterns. The later '09s and some '10s were basically smooth in that location. SOME '09s and '10s had this extra boss added.
Not to mention '09. '10, '11, and '12 had a lot of variations of front covers, timers, and oil fillers. For awhile in '12 (I think), the oil filler was built into the timer itself. Henry was apparently trying to figure the cheapest best way to work out those interconnected details.
It very well could be that Henry was considering putting the oil breather/filler back onto the left side. To that end, he could have put the boss onto the block. Then later decided there was a better solution. From 1913 onward, the oil filler really didn't change much in concept. The filler got larger, then larger again when the generator was added. However, the basic timer/cover/filler idea remained the same.
An observation. the location of that boss doesn't help research and speculation much. Nearly all general photos of the left side of the motor (in cars) are taken at an angle that one cannot see whether that boss is there or not. It remains neatly hidden behind the water/coolant return pipe. That detail makes it difficult to get a good assessment of how many 1910s have the boss, and how many do not. It also makes it difficult to get a better idea of just when the detail began to show up, and when it quietly went away.
It would also be interesting to compare the mold numbers in relation to the embossment. Maybe only a few mold patterns ever had that? Continued use of earlier mold patterns would explain why some '10s have it, and others do not. Careful (close) examination of later '10 blocks could maybe reveal whether the mold patterns were modified to remove the embossment.
However. To really sort these details out, would require a lot of detailed information provided by a significant number of the surviving '09/'10/'11 engines. And all that still would probably not answer the question of "why". This may have to simply remain one of those little mysteries. We know the boss was there. We have a general idea of when. But we may never have all the answers.
Tony B, I just have to say that I am so happy for you getting this great car! I hope you and it have many happy years together. And hopefully, I will get a good chance to see it when it is done. What color are you planning? (Dark green???)
It is amazing how much alike a '09/'10 and a '13/'14 chassis appear to be. What is even more amazing, is how many little details are different.
Drive carefully, and do enjoy! W2
That's a great find Tony. I'm glad that you got it. I know you can make a very good car out of it. The first club member I met had a 09. His name was Walt Rosenthal. He lived about 2 miles from me. Not very many of those cars are around anymore.
I spent the afternoon on the 09. I washed the fenders again and rinsed with cold water to get of all the dust, dried them in the hot sun and hung in the attic of the barn.
Next was the top. It is in quite good condition, one small wear area near the front but no rips or damage. I made a simple frame to hold it, washed twice and let is dry. I plan to treat it with some vinyl preservative and store in a cool space.
My daughter came to visit and thought I should post pictures of some stuff hanging in the ceiling of the lower floor of the barn, steering column, hood former and the winged Ford radiator.
Finally I looked at the chassis. Some rivets missing from the front area under the radiator mount, I ordered them for my favorite supplier. I also checked the chassis for sag, both sides are within the diameter of the string i used, that will be fine.
I treated the top, wrapped in plastic and hung it over the speedster so it should be ok until I need it.
Next is the firewall. The speedo is a Stewart Model 11.
It does appear to function, the reset set the trip to zero and after a few turns it registered 0.1 miles and 15mph
Is that mystery boss 5/8" diameter with a 7/16" hole? That's what is on the T-400 drawing. As mentioned, the drawings also show a tube near that location, but they don't show it in every view.
I pulled the firewall apart today. This way it can be cleaned up filled and varnished. It is made of plywood, covered with veneer, so I would guess it's not original. There is a name on it, should be worth further investigation.
I also treated the seats to cleaning, pulled out all the old tacks and then a leather protectent. Once I am satisfied, I'll wrap them to stop further deterioration.
I was just looking at an old sales ad for Syverson Cabinet Co. A few hours ago. They have/had Radiators, firewalls, fenders, etc.
I just found a post by Ray Syverson in 2013 and he indicates his father founded the company in 1955 in Des Plaines and moved to Palatine in the mid sixties.
So the firewall probably dates from 1955 to 1965.
Back in the '60s and '70s, Syverson Cabinet made some of the best reproduction Depot Hack and light delivery bodies ever made for a model T. They also made and supplied some other parts, including firewalls (I remember the ads for firewalls). Today, having a really good Syverson Depot Hack is second only to having a really good original T era one. A lot of them were built and sold. And a lot of them are being used still.
I would use it. In just a few years, that firewall will likely be half as old as most of the car.
One of the Syverson family posts on this forum occasionally. Hopefully, someone that knows him can alert him and he can comment with more details.
What a fantastic project. I would love to have that in my barn and bring it back to life. You are a lucky man Tony!
I just had an email from Ray Syverson about the firewalls his father manufactured. His Father founded the company in 1955 in Des Plaines and moved in 1964 to Palatine, so the firewall was fabricated prior to 1964.
Ray made firewalls up until last year.
The continuing work on the leather seats has had me thinking about just what do I want the completed car to look like.
My first thought was to change it to red with black trim and fenders, something like the photo near the start of this thread. Then I read the encyclopedia that all the november 1909 cars were Brewster green, everything including fenders bodies and chassis. According to a local friend, PPG Brewster green paint is available at Macs for a mere $760 a gallon.
For me, painting one color has logistical problems as I will completing sections over several months and on different surfaces, wood, tin and iron. Sounds difficult... If I do the metal black and the wood body a fancy color, then I can use more appropriate paint for each surface.
So do I want I "correct" or fancy?
There is no right answer, but I welcome opinions....
The formula for Brewster green by Ditzler is:
1909-14 Green Brewester Green Medium. Ditzler 1017. DAL: 46=10 55=30 27=100 49=256 10=464 2=1074
If the paint is PPG Concept, then $760/gal is about right. As long as the jobber who mixes the paint for you is accurate on his toner pours, then you should have no significant shade differences. Solid colors are pretty forgiving. It is metallics and pearls that can be more critical to application techniques. So, if you want it all one color I would not be afraid to do it. I'm a period correct person, but you should do what would make you happy.
Today I took the block to the machine shop for babbitting of the main bearings. I happen to look at the cylinder head and noticed the water outlet, its horizontal!
It looked odd so I looked at the town car
I think the straight one is "home built" and wrong. Anyone disagree?
I'm in the market for the correct type, roll on Hershey
I don't know if anyone wants to hear from me or not.
(Watch out! There he goes again!)
On a quick google look for a specific car, I quickly stumbled onto this thread. Quite a bit of discussion, mostly about '09/'10 T (Brewster) green. Worth a read.
I don't know the answer about the "all green" theory. Most of the best restored '09 and '10 T touring cars I have seen were Brewster green body and hood, with black fenders, running boards, apron/shields, and chassis (wheels green). I have not been close enough to a nice original car to tell for certain what they were.
I suspect that this is another area where Ford was not all that consistent, and likely made changes on some cars before the records were made indicating the change. I have seen Brewster green cars with either green or black fenders etc, over a black chassis on several beautiful cars. Those both look good to me. I have also seen a few all green including the chassis cars. Also looks good, but to me? Maybe not quite as good. Although, from some of what I have read, that may be correct. At least for some original production.
One of my all-time favorite 1910 T touring cars is Jim Boyden's. I got to watch occasionally as he carefully restored that car. He began that restoration just about the time I first joined a model T club, a long time ago. Unfortunately, it has been too many years since I have seen the car, and I never did get a good photo of it. So I am not even sure whether the fenders etc are green or black. I am almost certain that the chassis is black. Google did show a nice picture of Jim and his wife Jean standing next to their car. But the angles and lighting still leave me not convinced of the colors. (I think the fenders etc are black.)
Regardless all my blathering. Make that car beautiful! And enjoy it.
It should here be noted, that not all Brewster Green is the same. The color's name has a long history of its own, both way before and after models T were being manufactured. True and proper Brewster Green can be far too light in shade for a correct model T color, and vary from that all the way to nearly black which is closer to what the model T used in 1910.
And yes, I am a traditionalist. I prefer late '09/'10s and early '11s be something close to the original dark green. With or without black fenders etc.
(Laughing literally out loud!)
(Thank you. I needed that.)
Yeah, I would say that was someone's idea of a home made piece. But I guess it worked okay.
I better not say what I am thinking about it however. Mean spirited thoughts should be kept to oneself.
And any way I look at it, the car is fantastic!
Tony, I have two thoughts for you which you may/may not act on. If you can arrange it, the top material is best stored under some tension to prevent shrinkage and possible problems getting it to fit when re-installed. If you can fix the edge that goes onto the back bow and let it hang on the wall of your shop with a little weight on the front edge, it will keep it taut and you will avoid any creasing.
With painting different materials with different paints it helps to be able to provide the paint shop with a PMS number for the particular shade required. The PMS number system is a universal system used in colour descriptions. With that number, the shop should be able to mix different paints to the same shade.
When I built my 1917 shooting brake, I liked the old fashioned green used on the buildings of a current liquor chain stores. Their head office provide me with a PMS number, and my paint shop mixed acrylic lacquer for the panels and enamel for the motor and frame, both based on the PMS number.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
Tony, I have a few early water outlets in good shape you can pick one up when the pan is done. Kim
I completed cleaning the seats, including re painting most of the buttons on the back of the front seat.
Next I pulled the rear axle and started disassembly. I was pleasently surprised, it has bronze spacers and the pinion gear looks good. The inner bearings used Hyatt style bearings but modern repro without the spriral.
This axle has tapered axles and the new wheels have matching rear 5 1/2 hubs which externally look just like hubs for straight axle but have the taper and hidden hut. I think the hubs were specially made for Bruce, they look just great. Right now the car rides on 6" hubs with tapered hubs.
Finally, for today, the gasket is much wider than those currently available.
(Message edited by Tony_bowker on August 08, 2017)
When I was pulling the axles out of he housing, it was very difficult and I thought that there must be some kind of oil seal. Well I was partially correct, the axle housing was filled with cloth. It was tightly wrapped around the axle.
This is what I pulled out!
The same amount was in both sides.
Anyone have similar experiences?
Wrapping the wife's discarded nylon stockings around the axles to alleviate leaks is an old trick. I know a guy in northeast Minneapolis who does it with his Model Ts.
That mess reminds me of my ex-wife....
Maybe someone with a thing for oily stockings was hiding the pantyhose from the war rationing collectors back during Ww2
Bit confused here. How come the axle has roller inner brgs? My 6 rivet has babbit inners and I don't see enough space to put rollers in.
Jem, the interior of the axle has been extensively reworked. The inside looks just like my 14, roller bearings throughout. The pinion and ring gear look to be in good shape though I torqued the ten bolts to 30 pounds feet before re-wiring the bolts into pairs.
On another front my daughter and son in law have chosen the color. According to Bruce (RIP) the October 1909 cars were fairly solid Brewster Green, body, fenders, chassis and axles. Not being the world greatest painter, I will be subbing out the paint and I need a color for the rear axle which will be ready within a week or so. My thoughts were green body and black fenders, but my family thought it should be as original as possible, so it will solid green. I plan to look at Kim's 1909 as my few pictures of his car show black trim. This needs more investigation. However this is the green we chose.
It looks dark until in bright sunshine when the green really shows.
I went on a HCCA sponsored Blood Drive today and several friends asked why no reporting on the 09. I have been getting parts ready for the painter, I didn't think anyone would be interested, but here are a few pictures. Getting the rear axle and chassis ready for paint are my first objectives. The problem is that many of the rivets on the chassis have been replace by nuts and bolts. A couple were drilled out so the correct rivet is too loose.
I ran into a minor problem that there is an order to install the front rivets, I got one side correct by accident but the other has an interference problem
I removing the front spring I found there is no central bolt, but rather dimples that sit inside each other. Learn something new every day.
Tony B, I love to follow the progress others make on resurrecting their Ts. The earlier the T? The more interested I am.
That front spring is interesting. Many years ago, I had (I think) three leaves like that. A close friend had about four of them, and it turned out his and mine matched to a perfect full set. They went onto his nice '15 touring car. I have since gotten a few others like that, but most of them are not model T size.
I don't know for certain, but don't believe that those were ever used by the Ford factory. I don't have access to any, but have seen copies of a few advertisements for those as after-market replacements. They were touted as less likely to break with no hole for a center bolt. While I doubt that makes much difference, mostly since most springs I see that break broke somewhere other than the center bolt, They do appear to be very good springs.
I very much applaud and appreciate your effort to make the car better and more correct. I think that is what all of us should be doing with our Ts.
However, personally, I would not hesitate to use such an era correct replacement front spring myself. It has been a part of this car for probably a long time. Why should it not stay with it as long as it remains in good condition?
Besides, I could be wrong. Maybe Ford did use some of those?
Many other things? Like replacing missing and broken rivets? Definitely, fix them right. I wish I was closer and could help. For some silly reason I don't understand? I seem to like replacing rivets. I make my own simple bucking blocks and C-clamp them in place. Makes the job easy, even when I do it usually by myself. Two people is still easier, one heats, the other hammers.
I am enjoying every post also, Tony. :-)
I think you are blessed to own the car. I would love it. I will be following your progress closely.
That would seem to be the ultimate brass era Model T Ford. I'm very envious.
I too am grateful for your postings... Dana
Thanks for the posts....I'm enjoying watching your progress.
Today we had our first setback.....
While installing Babbitt, the machinist found a crack at the front of the block. I've been running around all morning to find someone to try and fix it. It think we have found someone to do it, keeping my fingers crossed.
It is quite visible across the pan mating surface but does run behind the camshaft gear. Hopefully it can be fixed.
Alternative to welding would be to slightly "V" it out and apply Belzona epoxy.
That can be fixed by a competent cast iron welder. One that understands the welding process, the oven heating prior, and the slow controlled coooling after. You will probably have to align and remachine the cam hole.
Is the Babbitt done? Proper cast iron welding (even brazing which would be good for that location) requires heating the entire block enough that the Babbitt would have to be redone. Metal stitching does not require heating the block (beyond a normal running temperature), and could be done. I believe Erik Barrett (among others) does that.
Frankly, my opinion (for whatever it is worth)? If the Babbitt work is done? I would go the epoxy route (probably with a "stop hole at the end of the crack). It does no real harm in the long-term. One could always go the "proper" welding route later. That part of the timing gear area does little to support the engine, or anything else. Even the timing gear cover is supported as much by the pan, and more by the top bolts. Unless cracks radiate into the main bearing web, it is beyond the crankshaft stresses, and essentially harmless. That appears to be a common weak area in the casting on early blocks. I have seen several as late as '15 cracked there. Most were repaired with epoxy.
The one other thing I would take into consideration, is the pan. Is it an early closed pan? That would be a good thing. They are stronger, and I wouldn't worry about it as long as the pan is in decent condition. If it is an early open pan (certainly not correct for your '09), I would at least consider the fact that the true support of the block is being moved back about an inch. That is not much, and won't alter the stress much. However that is the other weak area of the open pans (the major weak area is at the back of the block). Some people braze in a gusset inside the pan at that area of the '11 through '15 pans.
Tony, Diesel Cast Welding in Blaine MN or Portland OR can repair your block. Call Kim Ladd at 763-780-5940 if you are interested. Tony Honzay
Tony: Since you are in Ca, talk to the people at Locknstitch. They are helpful. Dan
Here is a link http://www.locknstitch.com/index.html
Wayne, the pan is currently being straightened by an early Model T expert.
It seem to me to be a later pan that has the inspection pan welded and a tea-cup drain added. I believe the pan was bent from the rework, never checked for being straight and that caused the broken crank. When first saw the parts, the pan was curved when placed on a flat surface. The crank broke between 3&4, I checked today.
Thanks for all the welding contacts, the block is currently babbitted but not machined. If necessary it can be babbitted again. The block is presently being evaluated as to the best course of action.
Tony, the pan is done and ready for you to pick up at your convenience. I second Dans advice about lock and stitch in Turlock.
can you forward the cast iron welder information to me
I need a 12 rivet rear end housing welded. it's cracked through the rivets on one side
I can see that you had better be sure about the adjustment of the bearings before you install the engine. An adjustment would be a lot of work with that crankcase!
With that crankcase, it would be very important to be sure about the adjustment of the bearings before you install the engine. it would sure be a hard job to adjust them again!
However, I should add that it is great that you have an original crankcase. That will add to the value of that car. I know that Tony can do a good job!
The ultimate choice for this would be lock n stitch in Turlock. They have done repairs for me that can only be called cast iron artwork. They are currently working on a 1912 for me. Rear wall ripped out by broken crank. I do a lot of cast repair with a spray torch but a block is to big to control temperature with my process.
It's likely that if you stop drill the crack and epoxy it will be fine. There are also options between the two extremes.
Honestly, I would ignore that crack and just work some sealant into it. It's not a highly stressed area and will probably never be a problem.
Erik is correct. I am fixing to call them about a Model A block I am fixing cracks in. They are very helpful in telling you what needs to be done to fix cast iron cracks. Dan
Do you have any dealings with Tony Blair from the tin shed? He might either be able to give you some advice or recommend someone who can. Whatever you do for that crack, you want to do what is the best way to fix it.
I think it's Larry Blair at the Tin Shed in Santa Fe Springs.
Today I took the block up to Turlock for "LOCKNSTITCH" to evaluate the crack.
Gary is sure they can fix it with their patented "lock" and after a demo I am a believer. The screws they use are quite special and on the sample they provided and photo'd below with just one screw provides 90% of the original strength. Just imagine what a line of four or more will provide.
This is the two bits with the special thread
This is it with the lock inserted
They showed pictures of ship engines which threw a rod and left a huge hole in the crankcase. They stitched in a replacement part with no heat and on site (in the vessel). Most impressive. I hope to get my block back after Hershey.
Jay Leno's garage used "LOCKNSTITCH" to fix a huge broken out chunk in the block of their Christie fire truck engine.
Tony: That is why I use their product. It works! I have stitched up a few. Dan
I like it!
Today I took the chassis, front and rear axles to SD Powder Coating to be blasted and painted.
I covered all the threads to show what I need to be protected. I'm sure they will replace it all at least once. If they mess up and paint a thread, it's not a disaster, it just means more work. It should be ready in 7-10 days.
Been thinking about the front and rear springs.
I guess I could disassemble and powder coat both of them but I'm not sure that would be any good. The paint will rub off and then we have the usual friction.
I wonder about gaiters, one on each half of the spring. I guess they could be custom made.
Of course I could just leave it messy, same as my other Model Ts.
Any other ideas?
The topic of painting springs is debated on all decades of cars. The best advice I've found was on the Utube channel AutoRestoMod, when they had a short series on the topic. You will have more than the usual friction because once the paint wears away, there will be slop in the springs. After cleaning up our springs, I hit them with rust treatment, assembled them, then applied black paint to the outside.
You have the leaves apart now, IMO sandblast and then coat the contact areas with graphite paint, Slip Plate or EZ Glide (avail at farm stores). Sponge brush on, its messy but dries fast.
Then assemble the spring stack, clean around the edges of any excess runs of graphite paint.
Prime and finish paint the completed spring. Add stripes and your done!
Today I made a trolley so I can move the body around and free up the chain hoist, which I will need when I start the rear axle work.
I am taking a break for a couple of weeks, a none Model T trip to Alaska. Hopefully the painting will be done when I return, then I can start assembly of the chassis.
Have a wonderful time!
Today I'm in Juneau near the top of Mt Roberts. Down below are four cruise ships, I haven't seen the sun for more than a few minutes since leaving San Diego.
I wonder how my block stitching and chassis painting is going?
Zoiks! Dangling in a cable car...
I had a heck of a time with a stable elevator in a tower in France.
Have fun on that trip. :-)
I am glad you are getting your block repaired. I had never heard of Lock-N-Stitch. Kim Ladd, owner of Diesel Cast Welding, is a friend of mine. I asked him last Saturday if he wanted to tackle an ancient Model T block. He told me his guys (more than 70) are working full time repairing and rebuilding diesel heads and now is just not a good time to pull anyone off the line to do a one-off repair. In other words, anything can be done for a price. I hope you will share with us not only the quality and success of the repair, but also the cost?
I heard from Locknstitch today regarding the block. There is a crack at the front, not as long as we thought but also two more near the back near the previous welded repair. One is near a tappet hole. The other is near the rear main. They can fix all three with the lock-n-stitch technique and it should be ready in early October, for pick up on the way home from Hershey. The estimated cost will be about $1000.
Also the chassis painting is done, hope to pick up next week when I get home.
(Message edited by Tony_bowker on September 01, 2017)
Sounds like a fair price to make three repairs in a rare block. Please post pictures when it's done!
Home Sweet Home
The Alaska cruise was very restful but it is time to get back to the hobbies.
Today I picked up the chassis and axle parts from the painters.
Most things look good except the front axle which must have been covered in bondo, because it is now quite pitted. Also the brake cam is pressed not cast. I'll look around and maybe find better parts during the restoration.
There seems to be an epidemic of early Ts with later brake handles/cams! Also, sorry to say, it appears that your brake rods are later also.
I seem to be saying this a lot lately. This is a common issue with older restorations of really early Ts. People forty to sixty years ago, simply did not understand the significance of all those minor details. While restoring nice original cars, they often replaced those special parts with nicer looking later pieces, just because it was easier to do.
You have a wonderful car there! Don't let that fact of its past discourage you. Do your re-restoration, then be proud of the car. Drive it, show it off, and enjoy it. Now, and later, when it is feasible and convenient, replace a few of those wrong pieces. In part, for yourself, so you can be even more proud of a car that you have rightfully earned that privilege. However, regardless of a few minor pieces, it is a fantastic car, and when you are done it will be even more fantastic! That is what part of this hobby is all about.
Over the last few days I've been working on the rear axle. Wow it is so different than the later designs. I use instructions from Bruce McC which uses clamps to hold the two clam shells together. Normally it works fine and I can set the clearances and they are stable when bolted up. Not so with the 09, it bends... I used the clamps and the front didn't close up so I added the two long bolts and thought I had it set correctly. I gently pulled it apart, added the goop and installed the seven bolts.
It was too tight.
Disgusted I pulled it apart and tried to add a standard gasket. It didn't fit. On the later axles the bolts are around the outside, on this they are inside. So this afternoon I made a gasket out of brown paper ( measured 3.5 to 4 thou) and will try again later.
My friends tell me that it's a good learning experience ...
Glad you went with the green Tony. It will look great when all back together. The chassis on the red 10' which I posted earlier for your reference was very pitted but we left it that way as part of the restoration to show some of the tough history of the underside of the car. Keep up the good work and I look froward to the next installment.
Re Locknstitch. I joined the 2 piece crank club some years ago and tore the rear main out amongst other damage. I had it stitched back together. The man said it was a tough job as the 09/10 blocks are poor quality thin casting compared with 11 on. It has survived several thousand miles so far.
Tony, not being picky but just for your reference and your education of early T parts as you are updating things with correct parts you may like to look for or advertise for some of the correct style front fender irons and headlight forks. Both items for your car are later style. The 09/10 ones are quite different. One of the vendors used to carry the 09/10 headlight forks but not sure if they are still available. The fender irons will be a little more difficult. It took quite a few years to find the correct ones for the red 10'.
I have no experience with really early T's. The running board forged supports appear to be made with two distinct angled bends, where those on my 1912 have much more of a continuous curve instead of the top bend. Is this how they are?
I came across two of the heavier 1912 style ones recently, but have never seen/noted those with the two sharp bends.
Allan from down under.
A question. Are the headlight forks shown in one of the above photos the correct ones for 1909?
They appear to have the side ways twist to them, where as the ones that I am thinking of just have a forward twist to them.
No, the headlight forks for 1909/10 are straight at the base and the later ones are curved.
A correct tie rod shouldn't be difficult to find. The rod itself is about the same thru the mid teens. The drivers end is a bit harder to find since the bolt goes horizontal. Still shouldn't be a problem.
I have completed the assembly of the rear axle.
It was considerably more difficult than all the later axles I have done over the last 35 years. Some of it, like the bell housing are very early with all the lack of rigidity problems, plus it has has been modified to accept tapered axles and Hyatt bearing. Further each side is different. On the passengers side I could install the neoprene seal behind the outer Hyatt bearing. However on the drivers side there is no space for the seal.
It needs a little touch up paint but that can wait until the chassis is more complete.
Tony, another item to add to your list of wants to be fitted when found is a pair of the correct brake rod supports.
Allan from down under.
Maybe you can grind off a little on the outer Hyatt sleeve to get space for the neoprene seal? It's most important to have one on the LH side.
Roger, an extra tube has been added inside the left side of the axle. The hole within the tube is large enough to clear the unmachined portion of the axle shaft, but not large enough to allow the inner neoprene oil seal. I will add the modern seal outside the Hyatt bearing. If that doesn't work, I will rework the Hyatt sleeve and bearing to accommodate the inner seal.
Today I pulled more stuff apart....
First I drilled out the pin holding the E brake handle to the shaft and then pulled the handle. It will now it go to the electro plater. Then I cut the brake cam, it will be replaced by a solid one from the suppliers.
Next up was the steering column. Again I removed all the rivets and pulled it apart. The two control rods will go to the electro plater. I am concerned about the wear on the rivets caused by the top of the steering shaft and I opened a new thread looking for answers.
The next decision is if I should shorten the steering shaft. The overall length of the normal column is 56". For 1911 Town cars it was 51" and 60" for the 1912 gentlemen's roadster. In the past I reduced the length of a standard shaft by five inches for my Town Car, so doing the change is not a serious problem. However the Encyclopedia also indicate the 1909 should be 50", that is six (6) inches shorter than the regular shaft.
Will I be able to drive it with such a short shaft, where will my knees go, will I be able to reach the wheel?
Experiences would be helpful.
(Message edited by Tony_bowker on September 14, 2017)
Was not the column flange and bracket at the frame at a different angle on the 50" column vs. the 1911 56" column and subsequent 56" columns? I believe simply shortening it won't give you the right geometry in the end.
Walter. Yes the angle of the column flange was different on the '09-10 columns. They also have countersunk mounting holes.
I have been a little quiet for the last few days, but still making a little progress on the 09 T. I have been working on the steering and the emergency brakes. The effort on the steering column is almost complete, I have reduced the length to 50", cut down the upper housing, slightly adjusted the angle and reinstalled the quadrant. I am now cutting the key way for the pitman arm.
On another thread I was pondering why the rivet heads in the steering box were worn down. The photo below shows that one pin had dropped and was rubbing on the rivet heads.
There was a suggestion that the two halves of the steering box should be soldered together prior to installing the six rivets. Sounds like a good idea. Now I am waiting for the control rods to be returned from the brass plater, which will be after the Hershey swap meet.
(Message edited by Tony_bowker on September 19, 2017)
Wonderful! Sounds like you are doing a fine job of it.
A kind Forum member sent me two Hyatt bearings to replace the two "modern" Hyatt replacement bearings. Thanks Brian.
I have completed the cutting the key way for the pitman arm.
Next is painting the upper housing. On Kim's 1909, the housing is black even though the rest of the vehicle is Brewster Green.
Tony, Is that pitman arm shorter than the later ones? I am curious because I think I may have a later one (which I think is longer) on my 09 as the drag link that connects to it is resting on the wishbone.
Daniel, I don't know the answer to your question. Right now I don't have the spring available, so I can't see if there is interference. On the length of the Pitman arm, it appears the first 2500 were shorter but I have found no changes after the first 2500 cars.
This is what Bruce wrote in the Encyclopedia.
3500 (T900). (Cars under 34,600, December 19, 1910) 50Ē long. Brass gear housing was a riveted assembly with the column fitting. Brass quadrant. Levers brass-plated with black hard-rubber knobs. The pitman arm was oval in cross-section, and shorter than the later types used with the two-piece spindles. (The first 2500 cars apparently used a shorter and straighter piman arm than that used on the post-2500 cars.)
Check out this link on pitman arms.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=pitman+arm+steering+mtfca&client=ms-android-samsu ng&prmd=isvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjG2JuanbXWAhUI9GMKHaV-B2oQ_AUI ESgB&biw=360&bih=560
Daniel, Cars after #2500 (up thru 1916 at least) used a Pitman arm that is 4-1/4" from the center of the taper to the center of the ball and 2-27/32" from the back face of the arm to the center of the ball. The first 2500 used an arm that was 3-1/2" and 2-15/32" respectively.
Tony, re. the pins on your steering shaft. On my TT, I replaced the shaft and gears with a 5to1 set. The pins pins were just a bit loose in the shaft and I replaced them with some drill rod that was just a few thousands larger. That not only tightened them up in the shaft, it also tightened up the gears a bit. Worked great. Just a thought. Dave
Tony, take a quick look at the pictures in the link that Chris shared above. I believe you need the shortest pitman arm in the series as this suits the 09/10 one piece spindles and the location of the tie rod and drag link above the front wishbone/radius Rod. If you are able to, please check with perhaps Kim? in his original car and ensure you get the correct components and steering geometry right. Anything less than a complete match of correct components for the 1910 year mat result in an unsafe situation or at the least a car that is unpleasant to steer. It appears to me that the pitman arm you have pictures is to long for a 09/10. I have been following you rebuild closely and cant wait to see that body all paonted up ad back on the chassis.
Please consider soldering the steering gear box AFTER installing the rivets.
If you solder first, and there is any gap between the two pieces, the solder will fill it. Then you'll install the rivets. Eventually, the soft solder will wear away or compress. Now the joint will be loose and leaky. Rivet first, with no solder or any other foreign substance in the joint. It will be as tight as joint as possible. Then solder, to close any tiny gaps and thereby seal the joint.
Jerry, good point, lets hope I remember :-)
Today I assembled the front axle. The king pins and bushings were in good shape but the lower thread on the RHS of the axle was stripped. On other Model Ts I installed a set screw to hold the pin in the correct position, but this time I decided to use a Helicoil. The kit was $50 from NAPA but itís only money.
A selection of the special tools required.
I was a little disappointed with the steering geometry, you should remember that my early mechanical training was on VWs, and they tended to do such things correctly. On the 09 the steering arms change their inclination as the wheels turn. Thus the steering gets stiffer once off center. I have a picture from before disassembly and I have put it back the same way, but Iím sure any modern automotive engineer would shudder with such an arrangement. :-)
Tony, I trust you are not referring to the VW Type One steering geometry as "tended to do such things correctly" The Type 1 single pitman arm and unequal length tie rods in a geometric nightmare. Those beam axle Beetles didn't even approach proper steering characteristics.
Ed, maybe not perfect but you can go lock to lock on both the VW and Porsche without undue increase in friction due to twisting of the tie rod.
I need a short pitman arm for a 1910 chassis. I would like to purchase an original. I heard someone is making them up from the later style. Does anyone have any information about that?
Tony, For your reference, some nice pictures of a green 1910 coming up for auction at Hershey.
Nice detail of the speedometer drive. Sadly no detail of the pitman arm,headlight forks or handbrake assembly.
Warwick L, I am sorry, but that car is just a little TOO nice! Plus, with the steering wheel upside down? I won't be bidding on it! Of course, the fact I am broke may have something to do with it?
Someone let us know the Serial # + what it sells for -NICE Car
Referring to the car coming up for auction, the description says "a car nearly a century old".
That does not make sense. Is this an old ad that has been re-purposed?
I am confused, of course thatís easy these days....
I just measured the pitman arms on all five of my Ts and all measure 4 1/2Ē from the center of the ball to the center of the steering rod taper. These include a quite original 1914 Touring, an original chassis town car and my 1924 coupe. I could see one of the 1914 being incorrect but not both.
So Iím confused.
So what should a late 1909 measure, Iím not referring to the first 2500 cars , but the 1909 cars after 2500.
Anyone else care to join in with dimensions from actual measurements or a source or copy of drawings.
Ok I just looked up the picture provided by Chris and it is reproduced below.
I was measuring in the wrong spot so my 4 1/2Ē should be 4 1/4Ē. However I still donít know if the shorter one is just the first 2500 cars as Bruce stated in the Encyclopedia or did the change occur at some other date?
So Tony, which of the two you have pictured would be the correct one for car numbers 2500 to 34600?
According to Bruce (see above) the first 2500 had the short (3.6Ē) and all subsequent cars had the longer (4.25Ē).
I wonder if thatís correct?
I currently donít have access to the Ford archives but several forum member who have had the opportunity to review the drawings, indicate that Bruce was correct when he wrote the Encyclopedia.
I wonder if the other variations we find are the result of damage to the two basic designs, after all they are over 100 years old and who knows what has occurred since they were manufactured. This is a selection of pitman arms from a site that Chris listed above:
Of course they could be ďminorĒ variations due manufacturing tolerances.
I hooked up the steering wheel and added the front axle. There doesnít seem to be any interference between the pitman arm and either the track rod or radius rods.
This is the front axle, it will need a little touch up paint.
Finally the rear axle, it now has the Hyatt bearings at the outer but needs the external oil seal. Iíll pick those up at Hershey.
There seems to be a little interference when I try to install the engine pan. As Kim check the pan on his fixture, the chassis could be slightly out. Iíll investigate when I return from Hershey. At that time I will start a new thread, this thread is getting too long.
(Message edited by Tony_bowker on September 24, 2017)
And I have enjoyed every minute of it!
Hope you have fun and find what you are looking for at Hershey. Looking forward to your return, and of course a full report of Hershey.
I found the dimensions for the Pitman arm, RV Anderson listed them in 2014. To complete the discussion, I will relist the picture here :
So we now know that the first 2500 were different than the rest, a minor change in 1917 and almost reverted to the first version for 1926/7.
RV's dimensions are spot on; the original pitman arm from my Feb., 1910 T (clearly marked T929) has the exact measurements that he lists for the 1910 arm.